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> I would phrase almost the same idea from the opposite angle: focus on the fundamentals that never change, and view the trends in terms of how they relate to

> I would phrase almost the same idea from the opposite angle: focus on the fundamentals that never change, and view the trends in terms of how they relate to those fundamentals. Definitely -- I'd say that these questions force the understanding of the fundamentals, because that's what you get down to ("fundamental"/irreconcilable differences). The problem is that fundamentals can be similar, and sometimes the difference is elsewhere (UX/DX/perf for example). > But also, those are some pretty odd comparisons. So they are odd comparisons, in some sense -- but the point was to reflect the kind of questions someone who didn't know the answer would ask. Ansible and Terraform (and Salt/Puppet/Chef) are often presented in similar context and they're often confusing precisely because they are so close but different. The other example (CGI vs Serverless) is situation that's somewhat more targeted towards the age discussion -- did we churn over the years for churnings' sake? > For sure Ansible and Terraform aren't directly comparable. If anything they're complementary. Terraform provisions machines (and also infra, etc), and Ansible configures provisioned machines. What you've said is the usual rebuttal (and it's mostly right!), but did you know that Ansible did/does provisioning?[0] The lines aren't drawn as neatly as they seem to be. You can build a Terraform-like experience out of Ansible, if you wanted to, and it's important to know that and why you choose a tool like Terraform instead of traveling deep into Ansible land. All that said, if you prefer, replace "Ansible" with "Pulumi" (Full Disclosure: I'm firmly on the Pulumi side in the Terraform vs Pulumi debate). [0]: https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/latest/collections/index_module.html https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/latest/collections/index_mo...

28304283409234 3y ago
A better comparison would perhaps be “ansible” vs “puppet” vs “chef”. I wrote everything in shell, then puppet, then chef, then ansible. Doing literally the same thing. Because fads.
- hardwaresofton 3y ago
  Taking this comment in good faith, because HN... Do you really not see any difference between Ansible and a shell script? Even just the move between shell and bash/csh/tcsh/zsh whatever else can make a marked difference in productivity and ergonomics.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    > Do you really not see any difference between Ansible and a shell script? Surely they do, but how much those differences matter depends on where those tools sit in relation to what you're trying to achieve. For example, I could write essays about the differences between bash and PowerShell, and about differences in productivity their various facets create, in both abstract and concrete terms. However, when my task is not about shell scripting per se, and the script plays only a minor role in the solution ("oh, but we can make the button launch a script that launches X"), and my main concern about that stage is to convince the team to use Bash and/or PWSH instead of making Python a dependency in the project - then bash and PWSH are really the same thing to me - any difference in productivity for that use case is dominated by one's familiarity with the tool, and none of it matters anyway if my co-worker succeeds slotting in Python for that use case. Similarly, there are many differences between bare shell scripts and Ansible, and there are differences between Ansible and Puppet and Chef too. But they're also close to each other, so if your use case doesn't hinge on those differences, you can be excused for wondering why can't we just keep using a Makefile for this.
  - allarm 3y ago
    I mean, yeah? Ansible has roles, collections and a great inventory system. There's a lot of extra steps if you want to use a shell script instead, to i.e. install Docker on multiple hosts running different OS versions. I don't really like Ansible, but I think it's quite good for provisioning. It's also super easy to write filters and plugins for extra functionality.
  - WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
    I can see that Ansible with its do-it-yourself-AST-in-YAML is more tedious to write and even debug :-P No wonder they have shorthand versions of their module calls, too. I'm still using it, though every piece of software lately, fad or not, is something I tend to endure or survive or cope with, rather than use or enjoy using. Little papercuts everywhere.
  - 28304283409234 3y ago
    Context: I wrote deploy and configurations in Shell in 1999, for Employer A. I started writing Ansible in 2013, for Employer F. In the middle I wrote puppet and chef. All doing basically the same stuff. And yes, obviously there's worlds of differences. Using Puppet killed my productivity, for example. But my point was that those tools are more comparible than 'terraform' vs 'ansible'. I stand by that comment.
sofixa 3y ago
> What you've said is the usual rebuttal (and it's mostly right!), but did you know that Ansible did/does provisioning?[0] The lines aren't drawn as neatly as they seem to be. In the same way that a toaster can be used as a hammer if you hit nails hard enough with it from the "correct" side. Ansible barely does it's main purpose, configuration management, but abusing it for provisioning is just on a different level. Even overlooking the extremely narrow feature set, just `state: absent` should be enough to convince anyone Ansible just isn't made for provisioning. Add it the bolted on templating of a configuration language that uses spaces for logic, the fun of Python dependencies of which you need a ton to do any provisioning, and you're just in for a massive world of pain for literally no reason. Disclaimer: I work at HashiCorp, but not on or with Terraform, and have had a disdain for using YAML for anything other than basic configuration and Ansible for anything other than simple, basic, low complexity and low scale Configuration Management since I inherited an Ansible project to manage VMware configuration in a past job.

28304283409234 3y ago

A better comparison would perhaps be “ansible” vs “puppet” vs “chef”. I wrote everything in shell, then puppet, then chef, then ansible. Doing literally the same thing. Because fads.

hardwaresofton 3y ago
Taking this comment in good faith, because HN... Do you really not see any difference between Ansible and a shell script? Even just the move between shell and bash/csh/tcsh/zsh whatever else can make a marked difference in productivity and ergonomics.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  > Do you really not see any difference between Ansible and a shell script? Surely they do, but how much those differences matter depends on where those tools sit in relation to what you're trying to achieve. For example, I could write essays about the differences between bash and PowerShell, and about differences in productivity their various facets create, in both abstract and concrete terms. However, when my task is not about shell scripting per se, and the script plays only a minor role in the solution ("oh, but we can make the button launch a script that launches X"), and my main concern about that stage is to convince the team to use Bash and/or PWSH instead of making Python a dependency in the project - then bash and PWSH are really the same thing to me - any difference in productivity for that use case is dominated by one's familiarity with the tool, and none of it matters anyway if my co-worker succeeds slotting in Python for that use case. Similarly, there are many differences between bare shell scripts and Ansible, and there are differences between Ansible and Puppet and Chef too. But they're also close to each other, so if your use case doesn't hinge on those differences, you can be excused for wondering why can't we just keep using a Makefile for this.
- allarm 3y ago
  I mean, yeah? Ansible has roles, collections and a great inventory system. There's a lot of extra steps if you want to use a shell script instead, to i.e. install Docker on multiple hosts running different OS versions. I don't really like Ansible, but I think it's quite good for provisioning. It's also super easy to write filters and plugins for extra functionality.
- WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
  I can see that Ansible with its do-it-yourself-AST-in-YAML is more tedious to write and even debug :-P No wonder they have shorthand versions of their module calls, too. I'm still using it, though every piece of software lately, fad or not, is something I tend to endure or survive or cope with, rather than use or enjoy using. Little papercuts everywhere.
- 28304283409234 3y ago
  Context: I wrote deploy and configurations in Shell in 1999, for Employer A. I started writing Ansible in 2013, for Employer F. In the middle I wrote puppet and chef. All doing basically the same stuff. And yes, obviously there's worlds of differences. Using Puppet killed my productivity, for example. But my point was that those tools are more comparible than 'terraform' vs 'ansible'. I stand by that comment.

sofixa 3y ago

> What you've said is the usual rebuttal (and it's mostly right!), but did you know that Ansible did/does provisioning?[0] The lines aren't drawn as neatly as they seem to be. In the same way that a toaster can be used as a hammer if you hit nails hard enough with it from the "correct" side. Ansible barely does it's main purpose, configuration management, but abusing it for provisioning is just on a different level. Even overlooking the extremely narrow feature set, just `state: absent` should be enough to convince anyone Ansible just isn't made for provisioning. Add it the bolted on templating of a configuration language that uses spaces for logic, the fun of Python dependencies of which you need a ton to do any provisioning, and you're just in for a massive world of pain for literally no reason. Disclaimer: I work at HashiCorp, but not on or with Terraform, and have had a disdain for using YAML for anything other than basic configuration and Ansible for anything other than simple, basic, low complexity and low scale Configuration Management since I inherited an Ansible project to manage VMware configuration in a past job.