4 ms·

No, that would be a highly contrived straw man reading of what I said. Can we not do that? my argument is that while Irish people did suffer a lot of diseases

by mint2 3y ago

No, that would be a highly contrived straw man reading of what I said. Can we not do that? my argument is that while Irish people did suffer a lot of diseases over the millennia that dairy was a major component of their diet, those diseases were not the modern ones and definitely not in the same prevalence. Ergo I’m skeptical of a claim that dairy is causing many of the common modern western diseases such as that paper claims. If it were a cause, type 2 diabetes and all the others would have been rampant historically. Additionally, as I also noted, since America’s milk consumption has plummeted while the diseases have skyrocketed it’s a bit perplexing to conclude milk could be a significant factor. The trends simply do not add up. Finland has the highest milk consumptions and also one of the highest life expectancies. higher than the US. Seems a little odd if milk is supposedly causing disease. Hence I’m skeptical. The trends do not add up.

shortcake27 3y ago
Conversely, it's equally as perplexing to conclude that milk does not cause any of these diseases because there exists an inverse relationship between milk consumption and rate of incidence over time. Correlation does not equal causation, and is especially irrelevant when comparing different countries in different time periods for diseases that are known to have multiple causes. I can't vouch for the study as I haven't read it, but it's quite reductive to dismiss what appears to be a comprehensive study mainly focused on biological pathways because there happens to be a negative correlation between Irish people drinking milk and rates of modern disease.
- mint2 3y ago
  Okay fine, let’s go willy nilly spread nutrition advice based on stretched conclusions from limited studies because diet advice totally doesn’t have a history of misinterpretation and trends later found to be wrong. Let’s upend diets on this latest fad of studies! No matter that both historical and modern trends raise questions about the conclusion, let’s upend people diets! Happy now? P.s. Also skeptical doesn’t mean that something isn’t possible. Just a word to the wise.
  - orangepurple 3y ago
    I should have posted his follow up study which demonstrates the transfer of genetic material from milk and its effects into human cells. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2147/CCID.S69135 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2147/CCID.S69135
    - mint2 3y ago
      An article that further highlights the point I made - they site some groups getting more acne when adapting a “wester diet” (not just milk), and fail to address all the easily found counter examples rested to dairy. But that paper is only 1/3 about milk, it also cites high glycemic index carbs and saturated fats as being causes. Health issues around low fiber high glycemic carbs is not a new or novel claim Going back to the ethnic groups it cites as seeing increased acne with adoption of “western” diets. It’s not a surprise or novel finding that a diet of ultra processed high glycemic low fiber and all the other issues with the convenience food diet causes health issues. It is interesting they cite a group known for lactose intolerance and blame dairy. They cite one disease as creating a natural experiment, and yet don’t mention lactose intolerance. And this new paper is just about acne, not the wide range of modern afflictions mentioned before. Dairy very well could have negative impacts, but it also could be the next aluminum or eggs. I’m not going to argue with eating less refined carbs and sugars and eating more vegetables. That’s well supported advice. Latching onto select dietary papers and then extrapolating to broad conclusions is a hallmark of what’s wrong with how the media and people understand nutrition science.
      - sitkack 3y ago
        This whole thread validates my statement. You under explained your argument. I was not attempting to setup a straw man and attack you with it. While inciteful it was not an underhanded attack.

by mint2 3y ago

shortcake27 3y ago

Conversely, it's equally as perplexing to conclude that milk does not cause any of these diseases because there exists an inverse relationship between milk consumption and rate of incidence over time. Correlation does not equal causation, and is especially irrelevant when comparing different countries in different time periods for diseases that are known to have multiple causes. I can't vouch for the study as I haven't read it, but it's quite reductive to dismiss what appears to be a comprehensive study mainly focused on biological pathways because there happens to be a negative correlation between Irish people drinking milk and rates of modern disease.

mint2 3y ago
Okay fine, let’s go willy nilly spread nutrition advice based on stretched conclusions from limited studies because diet advice totally doesn’t have a history of misinterpretation and trends later found to be wrong. Let’s upend diets on this latest fad of studies! No matter that both historical and modern trends raise questions about the conclusion, let’s upend people diets! Happy now? P.s. Also skeptical doesn’t mean that something isn’t possible. Just a word to the wise.
- orangepurple 3y ago
  I should have posted his follow up study which demonstrates the transfer of genetic material from milk and its effects into human cells. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2147/CCID.S69135 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2147/CCID.S69135
  - mint2 3y ago
    An article that further highlights the point I made - they site some groups getting more acne when adapting a “wester diet” (not just milk), and fail to address all the easily found counter examples rested to dairy. But that paper is only 1/3 about milk, it also cites high glycemic index carbs and saturated fats as being causes. Health issues around low fiber high glycemic carbs is not a new or novel claim Going back to the ethnic groups it cites as seeing increased acne with adoption of “western” diets. It’s not a surprise or novel finding that a diet of ultra processed high glycemic low fiber and all the other issues with the convenience food diet causes health issues. It is interesting they cite a group known for lactose intolerance and blame dairy. They cite one disease as creating a natural experiment, and yet don’t mention lactose intolerance. And this new paper is just about acne, not the wide range of modern afflictions mentioned before. Dairy very well could have negative impacts, but it also could be the next aluminum or eggs. I’m not going to argue with eating less refined carbs and sugars and eating more vegetables. That’s well supported advice. Latching onto select dietary papers and then extrapolating to broad conclusions is a hallmark of what’s wrong with how the media and people understand nutrition science.
    - sitkack 3y ago
      This whole thread validates my statement. You under explained your argument. I was not attempting to setup a straw man and attack you with it. While inciteful it was not an underhanded attack.