4 ms·

Ah yes, let's punish and ostracize one of the largest silos for their attempts to be open to federation. Why, exactly?

by dleslie 3y ago

ceejayoz 3y ago
Because their motives are suspect?
- cpill 3y ago
  there motives are...?
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    Embrace, extend, extinguish. Like they did with news organizations already. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pivot_to_video https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pivot_to_video)
    - zer0zzz 3y ago
      EEE AKA FUD
  - api 3y ago
    Surveillance, spam (advertising), algorithmic timelines (prioritizing toxicity because it maximizes engagement), and embrace-extend-extinguish.
- fmajid 3y ago
  Their motives are probably compliance with the interoperability provisions of the European Union’s upcoming Digital Markets Act: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/04/eu-digital-markets-acts-interoperability-rule-addresses-important-need-raises https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/04/eu-digital-markets-act... Since that’s a legal requirement, it’s not something they can yank in the future.
  - poisonborz 3y ago
    Thanks, I didn't understood before why they would want to add this (other some thumbs ups from a hostile tech community). But wouldn't such protocols be needed for all products operating there, not just new ones?
    - fmajid 3y ago
      It’s easier to add this to a new service where product management started after the contours of the DMA became clear. Picking something off the shell like ActivityPub was probably easier than inventing a new one. I am more knowledgeable about RSS than ActivityPub, so that’s just a guess. Also a Twitter clone where everything is public is easier than something like Facebook with complex privacy and sharing settings.
treyd 3y ago
Because we learned from this before with their support for XMPP in Messenger (which no longer exists)? And plenty of other examples for for-profit corporations initially embracing open standards/protocols that might threaten their moat?
- shadowgovt 3y ago
  Do we expect it will go better if they are blocked? Instead of the risk of embrace, extend, extinguish, Fediverse just ends up being "the thing like Facebook's thing, but harder to use?"
  - SamWhited 3y ago
    That's what it is now, and that's fine (well, the "harder to use" isn't fine and lots of people are working on that, but it's okay that it's not ultra-popular). The fediverse (for the most part) isn't looking for rapid growth, there are no shareholders to appease, we just want to exist and not have to do free moderation for Facebook when they fail to moderate the content from their users, as they have always failed to do. We block small servers who are bad actors all the time, and Facebook has always been a bad actor when it was a walled garden and they have done nothing to show that they won't continue to do the same once they support activitypub.
- zer0zzz 3y ago
  XMPP as a product was growing and doing fine until it completely failed to operate in the model of modern smart phones that have to use push services to stay connected. This Reddit link has some good descriptions of the limitations: https://www.reddit.com/r/xmpp/comments/np8i2l/why_does_it_seem_like_xmpp_doesnt_work_well_on_ios/ https://www.reddit.com/r/xmpp/comments/np8i2l/why_does_it_se.... In a world where mobile matters first and foremost xmpp just kinda died. And facebook wasn’t unique in this, google killed their s2s support around the time they transitioned to hangouts as well. Fact is facebook probably still runs one of the largest ejabberd instances (but I’m not certain what runs WhatsApp these days actually).
syntheweave 3y ago
They don't matter, that's why.
egypturnash 3y ago
Facebook has already embraced, extended, and extinguished RSS. The expectation is that they will do the same with ActivityPub if given a chance. They are also well-known for tracking users across the entire internet and maintaining "shadow profiles" of people who don't even use their services. Anyone with privacy concerns[1] would not want them on the same network as themselves. Their moderation is shit, they are happy to encourage arguments as long as they get ad views out of it. The Fediverse is generally supported by funds donated by site admins and users, who often would rather not have a place full of arguments. [2] 1: arguably anyone with privacy concerns might do well to avoid ActivityPub anyway but... 2: call it a "filter bubble" if you like, I'd rather be in one curated by myself and/or a friend than one curated by an amoral corporation
- juped 3y ago
  no they haven't, what the hell are you talking about
  - hughesjj 3y ago
    Google killing reader did more to cause the demise of rss than fb ever did That said there's totally plugins for rss in Firefox and the likes but no one uses them because why would anyone
    - juped 3y ago
      Yeah, Google killing Reader was the big driver.
    - TheNewsIsHere 3y ago
      RSS is still very widely used. Companies like Feedly have built a livelihood on it. RSS is used extensively in editorial and publishing back offices. The AP, for example, uses it as a technical means to facilitate content syndication to thousands of their affiliates and customers. There’s an extant and modern native/mobile and web app ecosystem and no shortage of libraries to leverage it.
- 3y ago

Ah yes, let's punish and ostracize one of the largest silos for their attempts to be open to federation. Why, exactly?

ceejayoz 3y ago

Because their motives are suspect?

cpill 3y ago
there motives are...?
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  Embrace, extend, extinguish. Like they did with news organizations already. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pivot_to_video https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pivot_to_video)
  - zer0zzz 3y ago
    EEE AKA FUD
- api 3y ago
  Surveillance, spam (advertising), algorithmic timelines (prioritizing toxicity because it maximizes engagement), and embrace-extend-extinguish.
fmajid 3y ago
Their motives are probably compliance with the interoperability provisions of the European Union’s upcoming Digital Markets Act: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/04/eu-digital-markets-acts-interoperability-rule-addresses-important-need-raises https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/04/eu-digital-markets-act... Since that’s a legal requirement, it’s not something they can yank in the future.
- poisonborz 3y ago
  Thanks, I didn't understood before why they would want to add this (other some thumbs ups from a hostile tech community). But wouldn't such protocols be needed for all products operating there, not just new ones?
  - fmajid 3y ago
    It’s easier to add this to a new service where product management started after the contours of the DMA became clear. Picking something off the shell like ActivityPub was probably easier than inventing a new one. I am more knowledgeable about RSS than ActivityPub, so that’s just a guess. Also a Twitter clone where everything is public is easier than something like Facebook with complex privacy and sharing settings.

treyd 3y ago

Because we learned from this before with their support for XMPP in Messenger (which no longer exists)? And plenty of other examples for for-profit corporations initially embracing open standards/protocols that might threaten their moat?

shadowgovt 3y ago
Do we expect it will go better if they are blocked? Instead of the risk of embrace, extend, extinguish, Fediverse just ends up being "the thing like Facebook's thing, but harder to use?"
- SamWhited 3y ago
  That's what it is now, and that's fine (well, the "harder to use" isn't fine and lots of people are working on that, but it's okay that it's not ultra-popular). The fediverse (for the most part) isn't looking for rapid growth, there are no shareholders to appease, we just want to exist and not have to do free moderation for Facebook when they fail to moderate the content from their users, as they have always failed to do. We block small servers who are bad actors all the time, and Facebook has always been a bad actor when it was a walled garden and they have done nothing to show that they won't continue to do the same once they support activitypub.
zer0zzz 3y ago
XMPP as a product was growing and doing fine until it completely failed to operate in the model of modern smart phones that have to use push services to stay connected. This Reddit link has some good descriptions of the limitations: https://www.reddit.com/r/xmpp/comments/np8i2l/why_does_it_seem_like_xmpp_doesnt_work_well_on_ios/ https://www.reddit.com/r/xmpp/comments/np8i2l/why_does_it_se.... In a world where mobile matters first and foremost xmpp just kinda died. And facebook wasn’t unique in this, google killed their s2s support around the time they transitioned to hangouts as well. Fact is facebook probably still runs one of the largest ejabberd instances (but I’m not certain what runs WhatsApp these days actually).

syntheweave 3y ago

They don't matter, that's why.

egypturnash 3y ago

Facebook has already embraced, extended, and extinguished RSS. The expectation is that they will do the same with ActivityPub if given a chance. They are also well-known for tracking users across the entire internet and maintaining "shadow profiles" of people who don't even use their services. Anyone with privacy concerns[1] would not want them on the same network as themselves. Their moderation is shit, they are happy to encourage arguments as long as they get ad views out of it. The Fediverse is generally supported by funds donated by site admins and users, who often would rather not have a place full of arguments. [2] 1: arguably anyone with privacy concerns might do well to avoid ActivityPub anyway but... 2: call it a "filter bubble" if you like, I'd rather be in one curated by myself and/or a friend than one curated by an amoral corporation

juped 3y ago
no they haven't, what the hell are you talking about
- hughesjj 3y ago
  Google killing reader did more to cause the demise of rss than fb ever did That said there's totally plugins for rss in Firefox and the likes but no one uses them because why would anyone
  - juped 3y ago
    Yeah, Google killing Reader was the big driver.
  - TheNewsIsHere 3y ago
    RSS is still very widely used. Companies like Feedly have built a livelihood on it. RSS is used extensively in editorial and publishing back offices. The AP, for example, uses it as a technical means to facilitate content syndication to thousands of their affiliates and customers. There’s an extant and modern native/mobile and web app ecosystem and no shortage of libraries to leverage it.
3y ago