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crazy idea: us govt scoops up all the office real estate at the crash and converts to low income housing for free. Solve two crisis at once, the obviously comin
by spokeonawheel 3y ago
crazy idea: us govt scoops up all the office real estate at the crash and converts to low income housing for free. Solve two crisis at once, the obviously coming real estate crisis and the homeless crisis. All for the cost of a handful of F35s
If only politicians had an iota of strategy.
- pharmakom 3y agoLack of affordable housing is not a crisis for the ownership class.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago[flagged]
- tectec 3y agoIt’s not so easy to convert offices to living areas, although I think it’s been done in a few places
- eganist 3y agoOnly in buildings which could reasonably be converted to have windows for each room without wasting office space square footage. So, slimmer buildings basically.
- eganist 3y agoCode requirements for housing are far more strict. One of the reasons you don't regularly see office building conversions is because homes require things like windows for each bedroom or at least one bathroom per home. While the bathrooms can be fixed with effort, windows mean a lot of office spaces would have empty cores as only the square footage near the outer edge of the building would be used. (This isn't my area of expertise. I'm leaning on there being someone closer to this topic here on HN to opine, but this is at least how I understood it from real estate developers who noted to me why they're avoiding office space conversions)
- zirgs 3y agoThose empty cores could be repurposed as storage areas though. Those don't require windows.
- joenot443 3y agoImagine the layout of a large office building. Some of them have the same footprint as an entire city block. The "empty cores" make up the majority of the interior of the building itself, it can't all be repurposed as storage areas. I feel like the notion "the govt should turn empty offices into housing!!" comes up on places like reddit _all_ the time, it takes very little explanation to show why it's not that simple.
- spokeonawheel 3y agoignoring code for a minute, for the most vulnerable, having a roof over their head is a serious challenge, and only getting worse as more and more people get kicked out onto the streets. Additionally, I am suggesting that this would be a government social service. USA is a deplorable example of how to view and treat homeless.
- jprete 3y agoIt can be better than the status quo, but there will still be major newspapers running stories about the homeless being warehoused in lightless holes with bad bathroom access and no kitchens.
- lost_tourist 3y agoLol I lived in a basement with no windows for half of my college education, it was fine. People adapt. Shelter is almost as important as food and sometimes more important, otherwise you freeze to death.
- joenot443 3y agoWhich developed country whose population experiences similar rates of homelessness to the US do you think the US should be modeling their policy off of? The UK or NZ I guess?
- ClumsyPilot 3y agoit is really easy to make boatloads of money as a government if you get off your ass and actually play the game. Step 1 -aquire land and property Step 2 - Build mass transit / metro and invest in the area, proterty price goes up 3x Step 3 - Rent out, or sell If some one refuses to sell land ar step 1, buld transit where you actually do buy land
- gremlinsinc 3y agothis reads like a strategy guide for a city sim lol
- imtringued 3y agoThis is a pyramid scheme that only works until you run out of undeveloped land. Also, this is already done in the form of suburban sprawl. You generate a bounded one off income but end up burdened with yearly maintenance obligations that never end. Instead of doing this, it would be far more logical to just charge for the services being provided in the form of a yearly fee proportional to the amount of land that is being occupied.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago> pyramid scheme that only works until you run out of undeveloped land. The whole point of a pyramid scheme is they don't create value. Developing the undeveloped is a productive contibution to the economy. Solving the housing crisis is a productive activity > this is already done in the form of suburban sprawl You have to create high-density housing, apartments, and local amenities. Pulling expensive underground rail tlinto a group of suburban homes is a waste > You generate a bounded one off income keep them and rent them out
- hackeraccount 3y agoThis assumes Governments want to make boatloads of money. Why would they? Governments want to help their friends and hurt their enemies. Doing this almost never involves making money - sometimes and only sometimes it involves helping their friends make money. In your example step 1 and 2 are fine but 3 is awkward. Selling or renting things doesn't make anyone happy. It's better to just give it away - there's no profit to be made but again - the point isn't profit.
- endisneigh 3y ago[flagged]
- dmbche 3y agoOC says "for less than 2 F-35s" - small budget cut to convert buildings into massive amounts of housing, seems reasonable at first glance
- CameronNemo 3y agoThe only part of the budget not getting cut is the military portion, so good luck with that.
- ClumsyPilot 3y agoYou complaint makes no sence - this is an oportunity to make bank. its not an expense
- endisneigh 3y agoPlease do tell how this makes money, and why many are not jumping at this opportunity
- dmbche 3y agoIt's only an opportunity for government as zoning/regulations have to be adjusted for this situation. If that happens, and it's made reasonable to convert offices into housing, pretty easy to make money from that. (Edit: by renting/selling the housing - if that wasn't clear yet) What are we gonna do with the offices anyway? Keep em empty for old times sake?
- endisneigh 3y agoWhy would the owners of the office space sell? They could do this themselves if it’s that lucrative.
- jdross 3y agoCheaper to tear down commercial RE and rebuild multi-family than to attempt a conversion. Floor plates made of high tension steel can’t be broken up for replumbing, usually you’ll want or need elevators & interior courtyards needed for lighting. There are very different water & electrical requirements Maybe there’s a creative way to do low-income housing meaning only a window or two in the whole unit, no individual HVAC control (set by building) lots of artificial light, and someone more knowledgeable than me would need to explain the power & plumbing tradeoffs. Maybe you could basically replumb & wire on top of the floorplates, taking a few inches from ceiling height?
- m0llusk 3y agoThere are important exceptions to this. Old industrial era commercial buildings often have large spaces and big windows that make them relatively easy to convert. This is why lofts as a form make sense while also being desirable. Much of the cost of converted units comes from the high cost of acquiring the property, but that is less of a problem if the properties lose their value or are possessed by the government. And it is worth remembering that all properties are depreciating assets that get rebuilt or refurbished every 15-45 years or so on average anyway.
- johnyzee 3y agoThere are solutions that redirect actual sunlight from outside, into dark interior spaces. They use them in many modern metro stations, and they work pretty well to get the feeling of actual overhead windows. AFAIK some of these solutions successfully channel almost the entire spectrum of real sunlight. I always feel that this is way under utilized - I could hardly name a building that wouldn't benefit from additional sunlight in some of the interior spaces. The systems are currently quite expensive, so that's probably part of it. As for plumbing, like you I also speculate if they could not just do a raised floor, or possibly inside/along walls, to increase the reach. They already do this in some renovations of very old buildings where they want to create a large central kitchen (resulting in almost horizontal plumbing that clogs like nobody's business).
- hindsightbias 3y agoCommunal housing floors. Facilities and shared kitchen in center core. Modern buildings already support wide flexibility for walling working areas.
- zirgs 3y agoThe problem is that many offices - especially open plan offices - are difficult to convert to living spaces. Few people would want to live in a windowless apartment.
- AndrewKemendo 3y agoLove this idea. Feels very reasonable, but most likely politically impossible so some Governor or someone with executive power and discretionary funds needs to just do it.
- booleandilemma 3y agoHere in New York I'm expecting Mayor Adams to suggest housing the migrants in empty office buildings any day now.
- xyzelement 3y ago// If only politicians had an iota of strategy Strategy requires a goal. Naively your goal might be to house more people. NYC tried that with lots of projects built in the mid 20th century. True it provided apartments for a number of people during that time. However the projects were a terrible dangerous place to grown-up and many who grew up in them weren't able to enter mainstream society (and thus then subsequent generation requires even more such housing) Meanwhile the areas near these projects are also dangerous and blighted - doing that at scale would condemn the entire downtown and send the city into a tax death spiral.
- bombcar 3y agoHere's a good article on when it can be done, and how: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/11/upshot/office-conversions.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/11/upshot/office... (archive: https://archive.ph/gQiQW https://archive.ph/gQiQW but it's not as easy to read) Takeway: old skyscrapers are easier to convert than new ones, because they tended toward home-like small offices. A modern skyscraper had to have a hole punched in it.
- stonelazy 3y agoSaw this in one of the HN thread - Read any article beyond a paywall using 12ft.io https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Ffortune.com%2F2023%2F06%2F23%2Fcommercial-real-estate-crash-office-values-unlikely-to-recover-by-2040-says-capital-economics%2F https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Ffortune.com%2F2023%2F0...
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoI don't want more low income housing and fewer F-35s though- in fact I want the exact opposite. Low income housing comes with associated costs to the city and the people who inhabit them pay essentially no taxes so everyone else's taxes need to go up.
- hotpotamus 3y agoI never really thought about the tradeoffs, but given that the F-35 is mostly used to destroy low income housing of government undesirables, I suppose there is some tension there.
- joenot443 3y agoWhat conflict are you thinking of exactly when you reference F-35s being "mostly used to destroy low income housing of government undesirables"? I have no doubt the US military using fighter jets to mow down their own civilians would be well reported, so I'm sure there are lots of sources for the incident you're referencing. Please be as specific as possible, I'd be surprised if you'd be ignorant enough to make such an accusatory comment if you didn't have an example ready to go.
- hotpotamus 3y agoWhere did I say anything about "their own civilians"?
- joenot443 3y agoSo what are you referring to then? No need to be evasive - just point out the conflict you had in mind. Like I said, it'd be ignorant to make the suggestion without some kind of example, so I'm giving you the floor for an explanation. Remember, your statement was that F-35s are mostly used for mowing down the housing of undesirables, all you need to do is explain where you got that idea from.
- 3y ago
- swalsh 3y agoGiven the inverted demographics and an aging population... is the housing crisis a long term issue? I'd guess in a few decades people are going to be trying to come up with solutions for all the people who overpaid for their houses, and can't find an adequate buyer.
- ed25519FUUU 3y agoLol if you think people sell anything to the US government without price gouging then.
- spacemadness 3y agoI do love the idea of the American Government giving a damn about low income folks. Unfortunately, any time a politician cares, our entire system destroys them to keep the inequality machine fueled.
- lost_tourist 3y agoThis will never happen. Also it's not about "iotas of strategy", it's about politicians not caring. You can't make conservatives care about homeless housing, it simply doesn't compute, "get a job" is their answer to the chronically homeless who are usually either completely addicted to a substance or suffer severe mental issues.
- jliptzin 3y agoThey have a strategy; the strategy is to help bring about the next crisis, either by manufacturing it, or allowing it to happen, so voters can be scared into whatever it is the government wants to do. For example, while Biden is president, Republicans are rooting for an all-out economic collapse so they can seize power again in 2024. And if there is no collapse, they'll tell you we're on the precipice of one, and to be afraid.