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// This sequence of events left a strange aftertaste: first striking observation was that there was no enough information I find this to be a universal fact of

// This sequence of events left a strange aftertaste: first striking observation was that there was no enough information I find this to be a universal fact of the war in Ukraine. I speak Russian natively and most of my family (dad and both in-laws) grew up in Ukraine. So you'd think that compared to an average Westerner I could be well I formed about what's happening. Yet I find it completely impossible. An amalgam of Russian sources will present a totally different tactical and historical picture than that of Western and Ukrainian sources. I can chose to believe the later based on emotion and prevalent sentiment of where I live but objectively I don't feel confident going in either direction. It's crazy to me that someone can feel certainty here with access to only one of the sides' information. Perhaps and even likely this has been the case in every war but it's the first one where I am so accutely aware of it.

the_gipsy 3y ago
It's not a new phenomenon. During the Chechenia war, On European TV, the poor Chechenia was invaded and civilians dying. My Russian friend was telling me on Russian TV it was all murderous Chechen terrorists attempting a coup. On the verge of the second Iraq invasion, on European TV, there was doubt about claims of WMD but a hint of oil and USA agenda. American TV at my friends house was rallying that Saddam and his regime must be ended immediately.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rewmie 3y ago
  > On the verge of the second Iraq invasion, on European TV, there was doubt about claims of WMD but a hint of oil and USA agenda. American TV at my friends house was rallying that Saddam and his regime must be ended immediately. The two were not mutually exclusive.
  - medo-bear 3y ago
    pretention to adherence to international law is
    - rewmie 3y ago
      Can you point exactly what you mean by international law? Because I think you're handwaving over something that does not exist, at least in the way you imply it does.
      - whatwhaaaaat 3y ago
        Interesting. So what crimes then would putin be guilty of over the Ukraine war?
        rewmie 3y ago
        > Interesting. So what crimes then would putin be guilty of over the Ukraine war? If you're honestly interested on the topic, I welcome you to Google the International Criminal Court's arrest warrant for Putin.
        whatwhaaaaat 3y ago
        Ahhhh gotcha. So you see the us invasion of Iraq as totally ok but the Russian invasion of Ukraine as against the law. It is a little funny to see you question international law and then without missing a beat pivot to “check out the icc warrants.” Just know that at a non-negligible portion of the us is waking up to the utter nonsense.
        kelipso 3y ago
        For future reference boys, you have to claim whataboutism before you reach this point in the conversation lol.
        whatwhaaaaat 3y ago
jrumbut 3y ago
I found this true in the early days, but I think there has been some settlement on basic facts. The Russians have not conquered Kyiv, their invasion has stalled but they have caused enormous damage. Ukraine has not managed to expel the invading army, though they seem determined to do so. It seems like Russian sources have largely taken the mask off. They are there to weaken the West and strengthen themselves and are fine with that coming at the expense of Ukraine. They continue to call Ukrainians bad names, but it feels less like a serious critique of Ukrainian nationhood and more of a rallying cry for their own benefit. The two sides do disagree on specific issues like who dropped which bomb where and who controls a given village but we seem to have moved on from the days when Russia was claiming total victory. Some of Ukraine's messages about the future are very optimistic, but it's always important to take forward looking statements with a grain of salt.
- rewmie 3y ago
  > Some of Ukraine's messages about the future are very optimistic, but it's always important to take forward looking statements with a grain of salt. I don't understand what you tried to say. All statements about the future are statements of intent, not statements of fact. Grains of salt are not required when someone says something like "I'm going to join a gym and lose a couple of pounds." Ukraine puts out statements that are very optimistic about their future because that's their intention, and that's just it.
Stevvo 3y ago
The name for what you are describing is "Fog of war". It happens in every war.
magwa101 3y ago
[dead]
attentive 3y ago
It's really hard for russians to believe anything but official russian party line. There is a real russian nazi bias of believing in "great russia" and "lesser" Ukrainians. Then all the news are filtered through that confirmation bias. If you really want to stay objective, ground yourself in hard facts like 1. russia invaded Ukraine 2. russia bombed various cities to the ground 3. russia lost its originally invaded territories around Kyiv, Kharkiv, Kherson regions which amounts about half since 2022 invasion 4. russian military losses as reported by Ukraine are close enough to media confirmed by OSINT like oryx etc. 5. maps are hard truth which is mostly converge to the same from both sides That said, nobody can convince anyone who wants to stay delusional. And ru propaganda machine (including online bots) is largely directed at constantly generating multiple conflicting lies to muddy the waters.

the_gipsy 3y ago

It's not a new phenomenon. During the Chechenia war, On European TV, the poor Chechenia was invaded and civilians dying. My Russian friend was telling me on Russian TV it was all murderous Chechen terrorists attempting a coup. On the verge of the second Iraq invasion, on European TV, there was doubt about claims of WMD but a hint of oil and USA agenda. American TV at my friends house was rallying that Saddam and his regime must be ended immediately.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rewmie 3y ago
> On the verge of the second Iraq invasion, on European TV, there was doubt about claims of WMD but a hint of oil and USA agenda. American TV at my friends house was rallying that Saddam and his regime must be ended immediately. The two were not mutually exclusive.
- medo-bear 3y ago
  pretention to adherence to international law is
  - rewmie 3y ago
    Can you point exactly what you mean by international law? Because I think you're handwaving over something that does not exist, at least in the way you imply it does.
    - whatwhaaaaat 3y ago
      Interesting. So what crimes then would putin be guilty of over the Ukraine war?
      - rewmie 3y ago
        > Interesting. So what crimes then would putin be guilty of over the Ukraine war? If you're honestly interested on the topic, I welcome you to Google the International Criminal Court's arrest warrant for Putin.
        whatwhaaaaat 3y ago
        Ahhhh gotcha. So you see the us invasion of Iraq as totally ok but the Russian invasion of Ukraine as against the law. It is a little funny to see you question international law and then without missing a beat pivot to “check out the icc warrants.” Just know that at a non-negligible portion of the us is waking up to the utter nonsense.
        kelipso 3y ago
        For future reference boys, you have to claim whataboutism before you reach this point in the conversation lol.
        whatwhaaaaat 3y ago

jrumbut 3y ago

I found this true in the early days, but I think there has been some settlement on basic facts. The Russians have not conquered Kyiv, their invasion has stalled but they have caused enormous damage. Ukraine has not managed to expel the invading army, though they seem determined to do so. It seems like Russian sources have largely taken the mask off. They are there to weaken the West and strengthen themselves and are fine with that coming at the expense of Ukraine. They continue to call Ukrainians bad names, but it feels less like a serious critique of Ukrainian nationhood and more of a rallying cry for their own benefit. The two sides do disagree on specific issues like who dropped which bomb where and who controls a given village but we seem to have moved on from the days when Russia was claiming total victory. Some of Ukraine's messages about the future are very optimistic, but it's always important to take forward looking statements with a grain of salt.

rewmie 3y ago
> Some of Ukraine's messages about the future are very optimistic, but it's always important to take forward looking statements with a grain of salt. I don't understand what you tried to say. All statements about the future are statements of intent, not statements of fact. Grains of salt are not required when someone says something like "I'm going to join a gym and lose a couple of pounds." Ukraine puts out statements that are very optimistic about their future because that's their intention, and that's just it.

Stevvo 3y ago

The name for what you are describing is "Fog of war". It happens in every war.

magwa101 3y ago

[dead]

attentive 3y ago

It's really hard for russians to believe anything but official russian party line. There is a real russian nazi bias of believing in "great russia" and "lesser" Ukrainians. Then all the news are filtered through that confirmation bias. If you really want to stay objective, ground yourself in hard facts like 1. russia invaded Ukraine 2. russia bombed various cities to the ground 3. russia lost its originally invaded territories around Kyiv, Kharkiv, Kherson regions which amounts about half since 2022 invasion 4. russian military losses as reported by Ukraine are close enough to media confirmed by OSINT like oryx etc. 5. maps are hard truth which is mostly converge to the same from both sides That said, nobody can convince anyone who wants to stay delusional. And ru propaganda machine (including online bots) is largely directed at constantly generating multiple conflicting lies to muddy the waters.