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The fact that countries like Venezuela struggle to feed their own people in the modern era, during the time of greatest abundance and production, while the bulk
by dmix 3y ago
The fact that countries like Venezuela struggle to feed their own people in the modern era, during the time of greatest abundance and production, while the bulk of the world figured out food production/trade a century ago really blows my mind. Not sure how people tolerate that sort of thing and still pretend the economic system is a good idea. Or hand wave it away that it's all some foreign conspiracy.
Iran is sanctioned, CIA works against them, etc too but they still managed to feed their people over the last decade plus (ignoring the recent global food crisis).
Edit: the Iran analogy might have been a poor choice, they recently enacted Venezuelan style price controls. Idk why governments think they can make things cheaper simply by just saying "this is now the new price and you can't change it".
> The Central Bank of the Islamic Republic of Iran began direct payments in the form of cash subsidies to Iran's public instead, with the government deploying an electronic coupon system as a form of price control to prevent price gouging in place of the import subsidies.
> Despite Raisi promising that "prices on wheat, medicine, and petrol will not increase in any circumstances", the price of some food products rose by over 300%.
Price controls always amplify existing supply issues and are used as short-term Bandaids to mask more fundamental issues.
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2019/01/iran-inflation-price-controls-economy-sanctions-rouhani.html https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2019/01/iran-inflation-...
- hedora 3y agoFood was weaponized a long time ago. Modern famines generally are not due to lack of resources or economic problems.
- lawn 3y agoAnd North Korea did create a famine before too, where they asked the population to give everything they had to the government and said that they would take care of everything. And then they sectioned off parts of the country and let them starve.
- est31 3y agoI would have agreed with you until last year. Now, thanks to the Ukraine war, we see massive price increases for food in egypt and the middle east. For a lot of people there, food became economically way more unavailable. The interesting part about this is that usually it's the war zones where the famine happens because it's virtually impossible to bring food there. But in this instance, the war was in the producer country.
- derefr 3y agoVenezuela was gang-ridden. Their "economy" consisted of "you go outside to try to trade money for goods and services, some punk comes along and demands all your money and all their goods, you both go home empty-handed." Nobody was bothering to run businesses, because their productive output would all go toward — as economics would put it — "illegitimate rent-seekers." No change in economic system would have made this better. They needed to get rid of the gangs. And they did. Things are getting better there now, though there's a delay, as people still need to start and ramp up the productive businesses that were infeasible under the gangs.
- Firmwarrior 3y agoWhat did they do to control the gangs? Send out the Fist of the North Star?
- dmix 3y agoThe Venezulan gov simply co-opted the gangs and now uses them as hit squads, anti-protest 'police', surveillance/intelligence agents in local communities, etc. Also whenever there are elections each member is required to go around the slums and force a bunch of people to vote for Maduro so he stays in power and keeps paying them $$. > Every member of a colectivo is required to bring ten individuals to vote at polls during elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colectivo_(Venezuela) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colectivo_(Venezuela)
- bacchus123 3y agoThey send Super Bigote
- tarruda 3y ago> Things are getting better there now Do you have a source for this? Last I read about the situation (maybe a couple of months ago) Venezuela had the biggest inflation in the world.
- JoeAltmaier 3y agoTheir economy consisted of bad oil, exported, and fracking made that a no-go. They'd 'privatized' their farms so that meant, no domestic food production as the 'new' farmers had not the training, equipment nor funds to run a farm operation. So food imports became unaffordable as oil exports dried up. Food riots and instability. Is that when the gangs came in? I imagine.
- Blackthorn 3y ago> trade Let's not pretend that trade is freely open and available to Venezuela.
- nradov 3y agoWhat's to pretend? Venezuela is free to trade with the majority of countries in the world. No one is blockading their ports.
- StanislavPetrov 3y agoThat's simply false. We have prevented Venezuela from selling their number one export (oil) by threatening other countries from buying it. We routinely seize the property of countries who we unilaterally sanction (as opposed to internationally recognized sanctions stemming from the UN). Iran, Venezuela, Syria, Russia ect. People can argue whether these policies, sanctions and economic blockades are good, bad, useful or ethical, but there is no question that they exist. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trade-wto-usa-venezuela-idUSKBN2BI1ZT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trade-wto-usa-venezuela-i... https://www.npr.org/2020/08/14/902532689/u-s-seizes-iranian-fuel-from-4-tankers-bound-for-venezuela https://www.npr.org/2020/08/14/902532689/u-s-seizes-iranian-... https://www.voanews.com/a/extremism-watch_us-firm-secures-oil-deal-us-backed-forces-syria/6194040.html https://www.voanews.com/a/extremism-watch_us-firm-secures-oi... https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/31/us/politics/russia-sanctions-central-bank-assets.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/31/us/politics/russia-sancti...
- primax 3y agoAre you confusing Cuba and Venezuela?
- StanislavPetrov 3y agoNo, he's not. We have sanctions on Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, Syria and a host of other countries. When we unilaterally sanction a country, and punish not only that country, but third parties that do business with them, we give those sanctioned countries an excellent scapegoat for their problems. https://ofac.treasury.gov/sanctions-programs-and-country-information/venezuela-related-sanctions https://ofac.treasury.gov/sanctions-programs-and-country-inf...
- bparsons 3y agoI wonder how well the US would function if it were under economic blockade by the entire hemisphere.
- xwdv 3y agoPretty well because we produce a lot of food, some of which we don’t even bother eating.
- nradov 3y agoEconomic growth would slow down, but overall the US would function just fine as we are self sufficient in most economic inputs that really matter. We also have the military force to break any conceivable blockade and take what we need, so no one would be stupid enough to even try blockading us in the first place.
- iscream26 3y agoIt's always been creepy to me that whenever the topic of US foreign policy brought about from the angle of "other nations should impose to the US the same geopolitical policies that it imposes over other nations" some US citizens are quick to talk like bullies threatening to retaliate with their military forces if any of those suggestions were to come to fruition. However, when that same topic is kicked off with "the people of an enemy state are struggling" they act as if they were nothing but concerned, compassionate humanitarians. The wording of the message changes, but the intent does not. The desired result is still intervention without consequences.
- kelipso 3y agoI guess if you're a highly biased nationalist it's still in your interest to talk like you're an impartial rational person when discussing these topics. Of course you can't keep that mask on all the time.
- kneebonian 3y agoIt's simple the world is run by realpolitik not by good feelings and high minded ideals. The best you can hppe for is to ensure the safety of your country and people.
- atleastoptimal 3y agoAuthoritarian states almost never prosper, even if they have all the tools to do so. Everything built on lies and games of power will crumble under its own villainy.
- mnd999 3y agoChina seems to be doing okay. So much so that every western government seems to be becoming more authoritarian.
- atleastoptimal 3y agoChina improved since the 1949 revolution by becoming gradually less authoritarian in matters of economic security. Even so, their GDP per capita is still a fraction of their neighbors (Taiwan, South Korea, Japan)
- LexiMax 3y agoSingapore also uses authoritarian capitalism and out-GDP-per-capita's all of the above, including the US.
- adhvaryu 3y agoMaybe the size of a country is a bigger factor than all.
- ffgjgf1 3y ago> including the US. Just barely. Also you should be comparing it to a single city in the US.
- realusername 3y agoThat's the only developed dictatorship in the world though, nobody knows if it's possible to replicate that outside of a city state
- fumar 3y ago
- aprdm 3y agoCanada foodbanks have been struggling recently. USA has poverty. It isn't just Venezuela or North Korea.
- Manuel_D 3y agoCorrect, but in America impoverished people are more likely to be obese than the general population. People experiencing food insecurity tend to consume calorie dense cheap food. This is not nearly the same as Venezuela or North Korea, which can't supply enough calories to feed their people.
- downrightmike 3y agoAmerican Farm subsidies to over produce > Lots of cheap food pretty much everywhere it even created the school lunch programs we have today > fed/overfed people. We even have billions of blocks of cheese in a cave system because of the dairy subsidies. I'm all for subsidies, except that the people that have farms couldn't survive without it and think they are doing it all on their own and voting regressive even though they likely wouldn't exist without the generations of subsidies their families took.
- mcpackieh 3y agoWhen it comes to food supply, abundance is more important than efficiency. Maximally efficient systems are fragile and fragility is precisely what you don't want when the failure mode is mass starvation.
- lost_tourist 3y agoDon't forget diversity as well. If we only eat potatos and some new fungus mutation wipes out the potato crop then you're fucked.
- hulitu 3y ago> The fact that countries like Venezuela struggle to feed their own people in the modern era, during the time of greatest abundance and production, while the bulk of the world figured out food production/trade a century ago really blows my mind Ever noticed that somehow only US enemies have "food shortages" ? You shouldn't believe everything you read.
- shaftoe 3y agoCan you name a US ally with food shortages?
- mithras 3y agoThat's his point.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ffgjgf1 3y agoI didn’t really get his point. Is he implying that there is some global conspiracy to keep food shortages in countries allied to the US a secret?
- thiagoharry 3y agoUS allies do not need to be afraid to be victims of criminal sanctions enacted by the country that controls the international currency.
- awesomeMilou 3y agoRegarding North Korea, it's likely because the populance is under tight control of a ruthless military dictatorship. During the famines in the early 2000's Germany sent a larger part of it's BSE beef reserves (meat from ~400k head of cattle) [0] to North Korea, under the condition to ensure the issuance of the meat to the civil populance. Otherwise it was feared that this meat would just be confiscated by the military. As a result certain German media outlets got unprecedented access to North Koreans going about their daily lives, because German humanitarian workers were allowed to freely travel across the country. I cannot find it right now, but ARTE/Discovery Channel produced a documentary where these workers were followed. There were some remarkable scenes in that documentary, it was like someone travelled back in time into the soviet union at it's lowest point. They also interviewed farmers and they put it in no certain terms that they knew they were living in a planned economy, but couldn't to much about it, since there was a constant threat of violence if they retaliated. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/feb/20/northkorea.famine https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/feb/20/northkorea.fam...
- akiselev 3y agoPrice controls work perfectly well as long as the government implements the necessary policies to backstop the market, whether that means nationalizing the suppliers and eating the difference in cost or subsidizing private companies. Venezuela and North Korea just don't have the foreign currency reserves required to do that. Tons of countries like China and the United Kingdom have energy price controls. Rental price controls are everywhere around the world, both good and bad implementations abound. Lots of countries have put price control on agricultural staples like rice and wheat. It's a relatively cheap way of guaranteeing social stability since the difference between the market price and the set price is relatively small and predictable per person, except in emergency situations like the world experienced with Russian gas and Ukrainian wheat. The best governments squirrel money away for rainy days like that, so that the price controls don't fall apart.
- nradov 3y agoPrice controls inevitably result in shortages since producers either sell their goods on the black market, or just refuse to produce in the first place.
- akiselev 3y agoPrice controls only necessitate limiting what consumers are charged, not what producers earn - the government budgets for it and makes up the difference. Besides the most prominent examples of price controls in the US and Europe are almost always in response to shortages: Food Administration, Fuel Administration, Office of Price Administration, oil crisis, etc.
- tim333 3y ago>United Kingdom have energy price controls pretty limited ones speaking as a UK energy bill payer. And out energy ends up pretty expensive.
- ethbr0 3y ago> Idk why governments think they can make things cheaper simply by just saying "this is now the new price and you can't change it". Because authoritarian regimes and price controls are two sides of the same coin. Economic power == political power By ceding economic power to the public to kickstart their economy, authoritarian regimes would be ceding political power. In contrast, by implementing price controls and vouchers/subsidies, they place the government in charge -- only government-permitted economic activity exists, which prevents people from gaining power themselves. To those regimes, scarcity is preferable over price increases. Scarcity makes everyone grumble, but allows winners and losers (via the government choosing). Price increases just make everyone grumble and realize how poor they are (internationally speaking). Or in summary, you're optimizing for efficient economic activity. They're optimizing for regime stability and survival.
- kodisha 3y agoLiving in one such country, with one such authoritarian dictator - this is one of most accurate explanation of why is this happening.
- dmix 3y agoThat's a good point. You see this in western countries w/ the housing crisis: fighting NIMBY groups is politically dangerous and creates powerful enemies. Plus liberalizing development policy like zoning = municipal gov loses power to control which developers get juicy contracts. So instead they enact rent-control. Which famously in 1970s NYC/Toronto caused a significant increase in housing shortage because no one wanted to invest in new properties for fear they'll also be rent controlled in the future. No one did renovations either so existing stock went into disrepair. Some of them simply burned down their own buildings because they were too expensive to maintain, which was a major cause behind the famous pictures of Harlem looking like a warzone in the 80s. https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/59af5625a803bb43462899e4/1510609463847-6JZTNWI4RTLDF7MLZK20/filmvacation-new-york-1980s-lucas-compan-13.jpeg https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/59af5625a803bb... I was just reading the website for the new (projected) mayor of Toronto and, surprise, no mention of reform. But she is planning to launch a campaign for city wide rent control. Some things never change.
- 3y ago
- virtue3 3y agoI think you need to actually take a step back and realize how complicated the world actually is. Brazil is one of the major exporters of food in the world. And they get most of their fertilizer from Russia. Russia is cranking up their prices because of the trade war being enacted on them because of their actions in Ukraine. Brazil had also imported a ton of wheat from Ukraine before the war. And is full of people that couldn't really afford a 15% increase in price versus the over 100% increase in retail price of wheat. Just ask google who the top producers of -fertilizer- are. You can't farm without it.
- NelsonMinar 3y ago10% of US households experienced food insecurity in 2021: https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistics-charting-the-essentials/food-security-and-nutrition-assistance/ https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistic...
- cdot2 3y agoYet those households largely have an obesity problem. Our standard for quantifying "food insecurity" arent similar to actual starvation and food shortages
- q1w2 3y ago"food insecurity" is an extremely broad brush, and has nothing to do with abundance. Many homes where members of the home are obese qualify as "food insecure" because they don't buy fruits and/or vegetables. The USDA doesn't ask why, they just ask if there are fruits/vegetables in the house, and if the answer is no, they mark the home as "food insecure". Another questions is whether you worry that you might not have enough food at some point in the future YEAR. Frankly, the metric becomes obviously meaningless once you read all eight questions.
- stjohnswarts 3y agoI grew up relatively poor, however my parents still made sure we didn't eat pure junk food out of frozen food boxes. We ate potatoes, lentils, beans, rice, pasta, lot of cheap veggies like cabbage. Parents grew some stuff too since we had a small garden, and I try to keep up that tradition in my back yard even though I'm much much better off income wise now. Families don't have to eat junk food, there's still plenty bulk stuff around. Not super cheap but at least as cheap as the processed garbage if you buy the raw ingredients.
- coliveira 3y ago> countries like Venezuela struggle to feed their own people in the modern era The US would also struggle to feed their own people if they were not subsidizing (something that is considered a crime in capitalism) their own farmers to the tune of several billion dollars a year. This is the reality of modern economies, farming pays close to nothing, and the only way to feed your population is to put large amounts of money into subsidies, something which South America, Africa, and other regions of the world don't have.
- eduction 3y ago> Idk why governments think they can make things cheaper simply by just saying "this is now the new price and you can't change it". Probably because it often works, which is why both Biden and Trump have imposed prescription drug price controls, why Bush imposed energy price controls, and why Nixon and FDR imposed across the board price controls. The last time we were seriously threatened in a war we did it; the last time we faced an inflation crisis we did it; and we’re doing it now with arguably the most expensive good for the fastest growing part of our population (seniors). If it doesn’t work, why do we keep doing it whenever we are in crisis?
- assbuttbuttass 3y agoCommunism no food vuvuzela iphone