4 ms·

Maybe I’m just a stick in the mud, but I’m curious - is anyone else tired of the term “enshittification”? It seems needlessly crass and juvenile to describe a

Maybe I’m just a stick in the mud, but I’m curious - is anyone else tired of the term “enshittification”? It seems needlessly crass and juvenile to describe a real and fairly obvious problem with VC backed firms striving for profitability. And it’s just not that clever of a term? And it just leads to a lot of the same comments on HN, whenever there’s a policy change on Reddit/Uber/Airbnb - “This is another example of enshittification, as coined by Cory Doctorow”.

camdenlock 3y ago
It’s the kind of term a bunch of nerdy kids would come up with, snorting and giggling at how clever they are. This is more or less the level at which Doctorow operates.
- tadfisher 3y ago
  I think the term affords the proper level of respect for those who enshittify their platforms.
hoorible 3y ago
I actually find the term so refreshing. It’s so poignant and perfectly sums up the experience, but adds a twist of cynical humour. > to describe a real and fairly obvious problem with VC backed firms striving for profitability Not sure if intentional on your part but that really seemed written as it these firms are worthy of any kind of sympathy. They aren’t. They make a shiny new thing, running unsustainably to entice new users, with the explicit goal of making it worse later on to increase profits once it’s taken off. Enshittification is in the plan from day one, and they deserve every bit of scrutiny and criticism they get for it. Fuck em.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  So predatory pricing?
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    And dumping... See taxi apps. All that should have been illegal from day 8... I can give a week of promotion, but anything beyond that should always happen at cost or above.
  - hoorible 3y ago
    Predatory pricing is certainly one way to enshittify, but far from the only one so I still think the umbrella term is more accurate (despite it, you know, not being a “real” word)
- tacticalturtle 3y ago
  All I was saying is that this pattern of platforms becoming worse in the name of profit is a real problem worth talking about - but that the term used just makes me want to tune out of the discussion. I’m not saying we should feel bad for these firms engaging in these practices.
  - hoorible 3y ago
    Ah yes that was not how I read it but going back again I see that now. I do totally get the desire for more sophisticated (no snark) phrasing, given the incredibly huge impact this phenomenon has on lives and livelihoods everywhere, but I think the crassness of it is effective, particularly in two ways: first, keeping the focus on the what (making things worse) more than the why (profit). Other terms I’ve seen like “value extraction spiral” don’t do that the same way. The second thing is it makes discussing it with a broader audience easier; when my very non-technical parents complain about how their facebook is so much worse now, I very briefly describe enshittification and they immediately just get it in a way that doesn’t happen when I talk about other industry concepts with them.
  - unsui 3y ago
    Will take a page from George Carlin on this, regarding "soft language" and euphemisms that conceal the underlying reality (e.g., Carlin's example of "shell shock" vs "PTSD", and many others...) The reason "enshitification" hits so hard is precisely because it doesn't hold back; it's supposed to make you feel uncomfortable. Would you prefer a more sanitized term? (one that more thoroughly obscures the intent with safe and harmless language?)
nonrepeating 3y ago
I’m absolutely with you on that. The phenomenon itself is interesting and worth discussing, but that term is just so unpalatable. Also, the term doesn’t really capture the meaning well. Ideally the word would semantically suggest the user-hostile and total capture of value, rather than just the process of becoming unpleasant.
- dingusdew 3y ago
  [dead]
- vincefav 3y ago
  You could call it something like the hostility spiral or value extraction spiral, but those terms don't really capture the experience of being a user on these platforms. Save them for polite company, I guess.
adeon 3y ago
I think the crassness adds some gravitas to the word. What's a good alternative? Using a "professional" word feels like being too nice to the VC culture and companies becoming hostile to their users and customers. Words have power.
rchaud 3y ago
Nah, it's fine. It's a single word, meaning is mostly clear from context, but reading the original article is good too. Frankly, it's refreshing to have bad products seen for what they are, instead of listening to the "experts"' MBA drivel about product-market fit and user engagement. Maybe if tech companies didn't use the exact same playbook, we could have a term with more nuance.
burntalmonds 3y ago
Yes, I was going to make the same comment. Fully sick of seeing it. It's silly and just detracts from any legitimate argument that might be there.
j-bos 3y ago
The word is icky, but so are the practices it describes. So I like the connotation denotation match.
DandyDev 3y ago
I like it because it doesn't sugar coat the issue
Ekaros 3y ago
The biggest annoyance for me is that it is if this wasn't the goal from the start... Whole operations were build on unsustainable models. And when finally we run out of "free" money the next steps are obvious. Not that there isn't profitable companies that just strive for even more profits, but those are again driven by the system itself. And the fact that usually the term is just dropped in the conversation. And no actually realistic solution or alternative is even provided.
- unsui 3y ago
  > And the fact that usually the term is just dropped in the conversation. And no actually realistic solution or alternative is even provided. Description of an issue doesn't necessarily require resolving the issue. It's ok to raise the issue without already having a proposed answer for it. I don't know where it is written that you can't raise an issue unless you also propose a fix for it. To be fair, I'm rather glad people don't generally do that... too many armchair XXXXs already that claim to have an answer for everything
ssivark 3y ago
The crassness in the terminology feels... somewhat appropriate for the phenomenon. The experience is an extremely unpleasant, and it would be nice for users to recognize it as such -- so they avoid repeating the cycle of network effects + value extraction, so we have a chance to build sustainable platforms which don't take control away from users.
fastneutron 3y ago
Revenue-Motivated Quality Degradation (RMQD) doesn’t quite have the same ring to it.
add-sub-mul-div 3y ago
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/582/861/e26.jpg https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/582/861/e26...

camdenlock 3y ago

It’s the kind of term a bunch of nerdy kids would come up with, snorting and giggling at how clever they are. This is more or less the level at which Doctorow operates.

tadfisher 3y ago
I think the term affords the proper level of respect for those who enshittify their platforms.

hoorible 3y ago

I actually find the term so refreshing. It’s so poignant and perfectly sums up the experience, but adds a twist of cynical humour. > to describe a real and fairly obvious problem with VC backed firms striving for profitability Not sure if intentional on your part but that really seemed written as it these firms are worthy of any kind of sympathy. They aren’t. They make a shiny new thing, running unsustainably to entice new users, with the explicit goal of making it worse later on to increase profits once it’s taken off. Enshittification is in the plan from day one, and they deserve every bit of scrutiny and criticism they get for it. Fuck em.

paulryanrogers 3y ago
So predatory pricing?
- Ekaros 3y ago
  And dumping... See taxi apps. All that should have been illegal from day 8... I can give a week of promotion, but anything beyond that should always happen at cost or above.
- hoorible 3y ago
  Predatory pricing is certainly one way to enshittify, but far from the only one so I still think the umbrella term is more accurate (despite it, you know, not being a “real” word)
tacticalturtle 3y ago
All I was saying is that this pattern of platforms becoming worse in the name of profit is a real problem worth talking about - but that the term used just makes me want to tune out of the discussion. I’m not saying we should feel bad for these firms engaging in these practices.
- hoorible 3y ago
  Ah yes that was not how I read it but going back again I see that now. I do totally get the desire for more sophisticated (no snark) phrasing, given the incredibly huge impact this phenomenon has on lives and livelihoods everywhere, but I think the crassness of it is effective, particularly in two ways: first, keeping the focus on the what (making things worse) more than the why (profit). Other terms I’ve seen like “value extraction spiral” don’t do that the same way. The second thing is it makes discussing it with a broader audience easier; when my very non-technical parents complain about how their facebook is so much worse now, I very briefly describe enshittification and they immediately just get it in a way that doesn’t happen when I talk about other industry concepts with them.
- unsui 3y ago
  Will take a page from George Carlin on this, regarding "soft language" and euphemisms that conceal the underlying reality (e.g., Carlin's example of "shell shock" vs "PTSD", and many others...) The reason "enshitification" hits so hard is precisely because it doesn't hold back; it's supposed to make you feel uncomfortable. Would you prefer a more sanitized term? (one that more thoroughly obscures the intent with safe and harmless language?)

nonrepeating 3y ago

I’m absolutely with you on that. The phenomenon itself is interesting and worth discussing, but that term is just so unpalatable. Also, the term doesn’t really capture the meaning well. Ideally the word would semantically suggest the user-hostile and total capture of value, rather than just the process of becoming unpleasant.

dingusdew 3y ago
[dead]
vincefav 3y ago
You could call it something like the hostility spiral or value extraction spiral, but those terms don't really capture the experience of being a user on these platforms. Save them for polite company, I guess.

adeon 3y ago

I think the crassness adds some gravitas to the word. What's a good alternative? Using a "professional" word feels like being too nice to the VC culture and companies becoming hostile to their users and customers. Words have power.

rchaud 3y ago

Nah, it's fine. It's a single word, meaning is mostly clear from context, but reading the original article is good too. Frankly, it's refreshing to have bad products seen for what they are, instead of listening to the "experts"' MBA drivel about product-market fit and user engagement. Maybe if tech companies didn't use the exact same playbook, we could have a term with more nuance.

burntalmonds 3y ago

Yes, I was going to make the same comment. Fully sick of seeing it. It's silly and just detracts from any legitimate argument that might be there.

j-bos 3y ago

The word is icky, but so are the practices it describes. So I like the connotation denotation match.

DandyDev 3y ago

I like it because it doesn't sugar coat the issue

Ekaros 3y ago

The biggest annoyance for me is that it is if this wasn't the goal from the start... Whole operations were build on unsustainable models. And when finally we run out of "free" money the next steps are obvious. Not that there isn't profitable companies that just strive for even more profits, but those are again driven by the system itself. And the fact that usually the term is just dropped in the conversation. And no actually realistic solution or alternative is even provided.

unsui 3y ago
> And the fact that usually the term is just dropped in the conversation. And no actually realistic solution or alternative is even provided. Description of an issue doesn't necessarily require resolving the issue. It's ok to raise the issue without already having a proposed answer for it. I don't know where it is written that you can't raise an issue unless you also propose a fix for it. To be fair, I'm rather glad people don't generally do that... too many armchair XXXXs already that claim to have an answer for everything

ssivark 3y ago

The crassness in the terminology feels... somewhat appropriate for the phenomenon. The experience is an extremely unpleasant, and it would be nice for users to recognize it as such -- so they avoid repeating the cycle of network effects + value extraction, so we have a chance to build sustainable platforms which don't take control away from users.

fastneutron 3y ago

Revenue-Motivated Quality Degradation (RMQD) doesn’t quite have the same ring to it.

add-sub-mul-div 3y ago

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/582/861/e26.jpg https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/582/861/e26...