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This is particularly grubby behavior by Toast. They are already charging restaurants to use their platform. Reaching into every customer’s wallet for $0.99 (hid

by jhatax 3y ago

This is particularly grubby behavior by Toast. They are already charging restaurants to use their platform. Reaching into every customer’s wallet for $0.99 (hidden fee) per transaction > $10 is greedy. They know it’s disgusting, which is why users have to click the Info button to see details about the fee. Most customers will not notice and just pay this hidden fee, but that doesn’t make the practice palatable. There have to be other ways for Toast to achieve profitability.

mananaysiempre 3y ago
I’ll note that this is in part enabled by the byzantine tax structure in the US, which basically nobody can be expected to tell offhand how much tax they’d be required to pay in a particular place at a particular moment for a particular product. (On the other hand, I’ve seen EU countries with like—the horror!—two or three different nationwide VAT rates for different classes of products require receipts to detail the rate and amount used for each line item specifically.) I’m fairly okay with calling this an acceptable trade for having (by modern standards) very independent and well-funded local governments, but I still feel I should point out this’d be more or less impossible in most of the first world.
- ezfe 3y ago
  That is a bs claim - sure, an online store can't guess prices without additional information (just like shipping needs a zip code to estimate on most order pages) But a physical store - everything is the same price no matter who buys it. Paper towels are never cheaper or more expensive at the grocery store unless the paper towels themselves change price. And it's not like receipts don't already divide things up - unprepared food (in MA) is untaxed, but prepared food and some other things are so grocery store receipts already divide food up into categories and indicate where the taxed items are.
  - mananaysiempre 3y ago
    I’m not talking about a store guessing prices or tax, I’m talking about a consumer doing it. If I remember I’m generally paying 20% VAT on my purchases and suddenly I’m seeing $3 of “tax and fees” on my $10 pre-VAT bill, I’ll probably know somebody’s doing something funny. If a store receipt (online or offline) is furthermore legally required to put the pre-VAT price, VAT rate, and post-VAT price for each item separately, there’s no way to sneak in a sudden $1 fee except for putting an item for SUDDEN FEE: $1 somewhere in the list. Presumably such an item would have annoyed quite a few people more quickly and efficiently than the current situation where they need to read about it in the Boston Globe, which might have made the vendor more reluctant to impose the fee to begin with. Again, I’m not saying this situation doesn’t have its own merits, just pointing out that it only exists because there’s an opaque “tax and fees” item to sneak things into to begin with.
  - WillPostForFood 3y ago
    You are right everything is the same price no matter who buys it (except online), but there is a fair amount of complexity to sales tax. Dine in food might be taxed, but take out food is exempt in some states. In my state, bottled coffee is taxed if it is sweetened, but not if it unsweetened. Bakery goods are tax free, unless plates are made available then it is taxable. Sparkling water is not taxable, but sparkling water with fruit flavor is taxable, unless it has 50% juice, then it is non-tax again.
    - callalex 3y ago
      Yes but the tax amount will be calculated anyway just fine post-sale. Why not display it pre-sale? What makes that more challenging than post-sale?
    - danhor 3y ago
      Dine in food vs. take out food also has different tax rates in Germany of 19% vs. 7%, but vendors offering both will offer the same price after taxes (and ask you so they can do their taxes). Different products in supermarkets also have different tax rates, most "good" food will have a 7% tax rate while it's 19% for everything else (with many exceptions). But the pre-tax price is only shown in fine-print, you as the consumer don't need care what taxes are now on the product while shopping.
- logifail 3y ago
  > EU countries with like—the horror!—two or three different nationwide VAT rates for different classes of products require receipts to detail the rate and amount used for each line item specifically (Assuming it's a physical store frequented by consumers) every price label on every shelf shows the price including VAT. Your EU/GB store's receipt will indeed break out the subtotal net of all VAT, the subtotal amount of VAT charged (shown broken down by different rates if that's applicable), and of course the overall total. Note that 99.9% of EU consumers only care about the price of an item including taxes, so those prices are what consumer shops display, and are the only numbers consumers look at.
jghn 3y ago
> Most customers will not notice and just pay this hidden fee It'll depend on what they're buying. When I go to my local bar with friends and am cashing out my tab? Yeah, not noticing that. Eating dinner? Also not noticing. Buying a $3 coffee? You bet I'm noticing an extra dollar.
- noahmasur 3y ago
  That’s why it’s only on transactions over $10.
  - jghn 3y ago
    Sure. I'd still notice on $10-15. To use my coffee example, if I go across the street and get a coffee and a baked good it'll be over $10. My Toast purchases are pretty bimodal. Most of them are either $100+ or less than $20. Sans hyperbole, my point was that I'll notice in one mode but not the other.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Hamuko 3y ago
Is this not just the default state for delivery apps? Wolt charges money from the restaurants on all orders, so a 11€ sandwich from Subway becomes 12.10€ when ordered through Wolt, then they charge you 4.99€ for delivery and then charge you 0.80€ for a "service fee". So a 11€ sandwich becomes 17.89€ with delivery and fees.

by jhatax 3y ago

mananaysiempre 3y ago

I’ll note that this is in part enabled by the byzantine tax structure in the US, which basically nobody can be expected to tell offhand how much tax they’d be required to pay in a particular place at a particular moment for a particular product. (On the other hand, I’ve seen EU countries with like—the horror!—two or three different nationwide VAT rates for different classes of products require receipts to detail the rate and amount used for each line item specifically.) I’m fairly okay with calling this an acceptable trade for having (by modern standards) very independent and well-funded local governments, but I still feel I should point out this’d be more or less impossible in most of the first world.

ezfe 3y ago
That is a bs claim - sure, an online store can't guess prices without additional information (just like shipping needs a zip code to estimate on most order pages) But a physical store - everything is the same price no matter who buys it. Paper towels are never cheaper or more expensive at the grocery store unless the paper towels themselves change price. And it's not like receipts don't already divide things up - unprepared food (in MA) is untaxed, but prepared food and some other things are so grocery store receipts already divide food up into categories and indicate where the taxed items are.
- mananaysiempre 3y ago
  I’m not talking about a store guessing prices or tax, I’m talking about a consumer doing it. If I remember I’m generally paying 20% VAT on my purchases and suddenly I’m seeing $3 of “tax and fees” on my $10 pre-VAT bill, I’ll probably know somebody’s doing something funny. If a store receipt (online or offline) is furthermore legally required to put the pre-VAT price, VAT rate, and post-VAT price for each item separately, there’s no way to sneak in a sudden $1 fee except for putting an item for SUDDEN FEE: $1 somewhere in the list. Presumably such an item would have annoyed quite a few people more quickly and efficiently than the current situation where they need to read about it in the Boston Globe, which might have made the vendor more reluctant to impose the fee to begin with. Again, I’m not saying this situation doesn’t have its own merits, just pointing out that it only exists because there’s an opaque “tax and fees” item to sneak things into to begin with.
- WillPostForFood 3y ago
  You are right everything is the same price no matter who buys it (except online), but there is a fair amount of complexity to sales tax. Dine in food might be taxed, but take out food is exempt in some states. In my state, bottled coffee is taxed if it is sweetened, but not if it unsweetened. Bakery goods are tax free, unless plates are made available then it is taxable. Sparkling water is not taxable, but sparkling water with fruit flavor is taxable, unless it has 50% juice, then it is non-tax again.
  - callalex 3y ago
    Yes but the tax amount will be calculated anyway just fine post-sale. Why not display it pre-sale? What makes that more challenging than post-sale?
  - danhor 3y ago
    Dine in food vs. take out food also has different tax rates in Germany of 19% vs. 7%, but vendors offering both will offer the same price after taxes (and ask you so they can do their taxes). Different products in supermarkets also have different tax rates, most "good" food will have a 7% tax rate while it's 19% for everything else (with many exceptions). But the pre-tax price is only shown in fine-print, you as the consumer don't need care what taxes are now on the product while shopping.
logifail 3y ago
> EU countries with like—the horror!—two or three different nationwide VAT rates for different classes of products require receipts to detail the rate and amount used for each line item specifically (Assuming it's a physical store frequented by consumers) every price label on every shelf shows the price including VAT. Your EU/GB store's receipt will indeed break out the subtotal net of all VAT, the subtotal amount of VAT charged (shown broken down by different rates if that's applicable), and of course the overall total. Note that 99.9% of EU consumers only care about the price of an item including taxes, so those prices are what consumer shops display, and are the only numbers consumers look at.

jghn 3y ago

> Most customers will not notice and just pay this hidden fee It'll depend on what they're buying. When I go to my local bar with friends and am cashing out my tab? Yeah, not noticing that. Eating dinner? Also not noticing. Buying a $3 coffee? You bet I'm noticing an extra dollar.

noahmasur 3y ago
That’s why it’s only on transactions over $10.
- jghn 3y ago
  Sure. I'd still notice on $10-15. To use my coffee example, if I go across the street and get a coffee and a baked good it'll be over $10. My Toast purchases are pretty bimodal. Most of them are either $100+ or less than $20. Sans hyperbole, my point was that I'll notice in one mode but not the other.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Hamuko 3y ago

Is this not just the default state for delivery apps? Wolt charges money from the restaurants on all orders, so a 11€ sandwich from Subway becomes 12.10€ when ordered through Wolt, then they charge you 4.99€ for delivery and then charge you 0.80€ for a "service fee". So a 11€ sandwich becomes 17.89€ with delivery and fees.