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I really did not like how the Ferengi evolved under TNG/DS9. The first episode with the they were truly unique and alien. Then as things progressed they were

by jmclnx 3y ago

I really did not like how the Ferengi evolved under TNG/DS9. The first episode with the they were truly unique and alien. Then as things progressed they were turned into to cowards and clowns. I also say the same for the Borg, the first episode there were hive minds connected with tech, they had their own babies and no one leader. Then the TNG turned them into ants/bees with queens. To bad they did not expand upon what seemed to be the original intent.

krapp 3y ago
The Ferengi were a joke when they first appeared on screen - they were drooling, barely literate space cavemen. The "evolved" Ferengi actually match the writers' original intent of portraying them as a parody of American capitalism. And the Borg weren't portrayed as a hivemind in their first appearance, either. They were simply a vastly superior species that doesn't consider the Enterprise or its crew anything more than resources, and so they just start carving the ship up with a laser. Guinan even says it may be possible for the Federation to advance to the point of dialogue with them. The focus on assimilation was added later. And the existence of a queen does make sense (although of course insect queens aren't actually monarchs.) A purely unstructured and decentralized hivemind would be incapable of the necessary degree of planning and organization necessary to accomplish anything, much less maintain a quadrant-spanning technological civilization. A hierarchy is still necessary, and in fact the original concept for the Borg more closely resembled an insect colony (which they couldn't do because of budgetary constraints.) Also from a purely Doylist point of view, a villain needs a face and a voice, otherwise it's just a force of nature. A hurricane can be dangerous and dramatic but not compelling as an antagonist. And TNG didn't invent the Borg Queen anyway, that was the movies. If you're going to blame a series for ruining the Borg look at Voyager.
- kitsunesoba 3y ago
  Voyager had its moments and was a good fun “junk food” trek (great for unwinding after work, as I found out while marathonning all things Trek a few years ago) but yeah, the stuff Janeway manages to pull off with a tiny underpowered science vessel cut off from Starfleet, particularly with regard to the Borg, was ridiculous.
  - sgt 3y ago
    I love Voyager. If you want to call it junk food trek sure, but it has some depth as well. The most depth were some of the Dominion DS9 episodes, in my opinion. But overall I still rank TNG the highest, then VOY, followed by DS9. That's my top three. As for 4th, that's something we should discuss over a beer.
    - kitsunesoba 3y ago
      For me the highlights of Voyager were some of its characters. The Doctor and Seven both grew into their roles very well and Tuvok is one of the most convincingly Vulcan characters who isn't Spock, for example.
      - sgt 3y ago
        And Janeway - such a great character development.
        fbdab103 3y ago
        Really? If you grabbed S1 Janeway and plopped her in the finale, I felt she was mostly the same (minus Future timeline Janeway grieving for Tuvok/Seven)? Obsessed with getting the crew home and willing to bend the rules, yet still sticking to Federation principles when push comes to shove (ie refusing the handful of opportunities which would have plopped them into the Alpha quadrant).
        sgt 3y ago
        What you say makes sense if you put it that way. Maybe she evolved more as a person than a leader?
  - batch12 3y ago
    Not every version of Janeway's ship and crew made it. We followed the path/timeline of the successful one. For instance, Harry and Naomi Wildman's voyager was destroyed. There was also the year of hell, etc.
- arp242 3y ago
  > Also from a purely Doylist point of view, a villain needs a face and a voice, otherwise it's just a force of nature. I always felt that they don't is exactly what made the Borg so scary; they can't be talked to or negotiated with. They just exist to assimilate. Nothing more or less. No compassion, no humanity. Before the Borg queen they really were a force of nature, but with laser phaser guns and shit. The replicators in Stargate had the same effect. I felt there too they went too far by explaining the origins and having "human-like" replicators (I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, as I never cared all that much for Stargate and it's been ages since I watched it).
  - data-ottawa 3y ago
    I have the same thoughts on the Borg. They’re like a virus, they’re a local optimum that is both logical and nearly inescapable.
  - Izkata 3y ago
    The origin worked for me: it's a grey goo scenario, technology that escaped control of its creators. The human-form replicators were an evolution of the technology during the show, not part of their origin. Happened while they were trapped in a time dilation field.
- lostmsu 3y ago
  > a villain needs a face and a voice, otherwise it's just a force of nature I agree with the parent. A force of nature is not a bad way to present the Borg.

by jmclnx 3y ago

krapp 3y ago

The Ferengi were a joke when they first appeared on screen - they were drooling, barely literate space cavemen. The "evolved" Ferengi actually match the writers' original intent of portraying them as a parody of American capitalism. And the Borg weren't portrayed as a hivemind in their first appearance, either. They were simply a vastly superior species that doesn't consider the Enterprise or its crew anything more than resources, and so they just start carving the ship up with a laser. Guinan even says it may be possible for the Federation to advance to the point of dialogue with them. The focus on assimilation was added later. And the existence of a queen does make sense (although of course insect queens aren't actually monarchs.) A purely unstructured and decentralized hivemind would be incapable of the necessary degree of planning and organization necessary to accomplish anything, much less maintain a quadrant-spanning technological civilization. A hierarchy is still necessary, and in fact the original concept for the Borg more closely resembled an insect colony (which they couldn't do because of budgetary constraints.) Also from a purely Doylist point of view, a villain needs a face and a voice, otherwise it's just a force of nature. A hurricane can be dangerous and dramatic but not compelling as an antagonist. And TNG didn't invent the Borg Queen anyway, that was the movies. If you're going to blame a series for ruining the Borg look at Voyager.

kitsunesoba 3y ago
Voyager had its moments and was a good fun “junk food” trek (great for unwinding after work, as I found out while marathonning all things Trek a few years ago) but yeah, the stuff Janeway manages to pull off with a tiny underpowered science vessel cut off from Starfleet, particularly with regard to the Borg, was ridiculous.
- sgt 3y ago
  I love Voyager. If you want to call it junk food trek sure, but it has some depth as well. The most depth were some of the Dominion DS9 episodes, in my opinion. But overall I still rank TNG the highest, then VOY, followed by DS9. That's my top three. As for 4th, that's something we should discuss over a beer.
  - kitsunesoba 3y ago
    For me the highlights of Voyager were some of its characters. The Doctor and Seven both grew into their roles very well and Tuvok is one of the most convincingly Vulcan characters who isn't Spock, for example.
    - sgt 3y ago
      And Janeway - such a great character development.
      - fbdab103 3y ago
        Really? If you grabbed S1 Janeway and plopped her in the finale, I felt she was mostly the same (minus Future timeline Janeway grieving for Tuvok/Seven)? Obsessed with getting the crew home and willing to bend the rules, yet still sticking to Federation principles when push comes to shove (ie refusing the handful of opportunities which would have plopped them into the Alpha quadrant).
        sgt 3y ago
        What you say makes sense if you put it that way. Maybe she evolved more as a person than a leader?
- batch12 3y ago
  Not every version of Janeway's ship and crew made it. We followed the path/timeline of the successful one. For instance, Harry and Naomi Wildman's voyager was destroyed. There was also the year of hell, etc.
arp242 3y ago
> Also from a purely Doylist point of view, a villain needs a face and a voice, otherwise it's just a force of nature. I always felt that they don't is exactly what made the Borg so scary; they can't be talked to or negotiated with. They just exist to assimilate. Nothing more or less. No compassion, no humanity. Before the Borg queen they really were a force of nature, but with laser phaser guns and shit. The replicators in Stargate had the same effect. I felt there too they went too far by explaining the origins and having "human-like" replicators (I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, as I never cared all that much for Stargate and it's been ages since I watched it).
- data-ottawa 3y ago
  I have the same thoughts on the Borg. They’re like a virus, they’re a local optimum that is both logical and nearly inescapable.
- Izkata 3y ago
  The origin worked for me: it's a grey goo scenario, technology that escaped control of its creators. The human-form replicators were an evolution of the technology during the show, not part of their origin. Happened while they were trapped in a time dilation field.
lostmsu 3y ago
> a villain needs a face and a voice, otherwise it's just a force of nature I agree with the parent. A force of nature is not a bad way to present the Borg.