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Don't get me wrong, I love the expanded universe thing. Lower Decks is one of my favorite animated shows. Just, you have to recognize that the source material

Don't get me wrong, I love the expanded universe thing. Lower Decks is one of my favorite animated shows. Just, you have to recognize that the source material had its flaws. Like, this: A contract is a contract is a contract… but only between Ferengi. That's just kind of... bleh? Especially when, yes, you consider the ethnic stereotypes "culture of sneering traders who will cheat you" evokes. But even without those stereotypes, it's just kind of childish.

Ekaros 3y ago
Then again even in our own world contract is only as strong as the legal system backing it. Treaties and agreements change things, but going beyond that it is often true.
zo1 3y ago
Judging by how many "contracts" between the west and Russia I imagine have been broken over the war in Ukraine, its actually deeper than many think. We forget how writers and comedians have a good pulse on human nature without all the fluff and feel good narrative we like to placate ourselves with.
- zo1 3y ago
  Let's also not forget: "War is good for business." In contrast with another one: "Peace is good for business"
  - ant6n 3y ago
    Ah the 34th and 35th of rule of acquisition. It’s easy to get them mixed up.
true_religion 3y ago
Well, non Ferengi will often sign contracts then come back to claim they didn’t know it bound them to do illegal actions, or refuse to do something immoral or worse yet claim bankruptcy and try to run from debt. So this line is a warning about outsiders.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Federation is great example of this. They go to planet and one of their crew members commits a crime... And then they fail to allow just punishment to happen to that crew member. Just goes to show that they feel superior to other races and do not follow any laws that might apply to them. With such people how could contract be contract?
  - nurettin 3y ago
    Yeah but it's usually something akin to "capital punishment for pressing the grass" which is just ridiculously outlandish pardon the pun.
    - teekert 3y ago
      “When has justice ever been as simple as a rule book?“
      - nurettin 3y ago
        You know s1e8! The quote fits so well with the website's intentions.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    The “crime” that Wesley committed in one episode was that he was playing sports with some other teenagers and accidentally fell into a flower bed. The punishment? death.
  - eesmith 3y ago
    > they fail to allow just punishment to happen to that crew member Which episode were you thinking of? I'm assuming TNG's "Justice"? In ToS "Wolf in the Fold", Scott did not commit the crime but was subject to the local authorities; In DS9 "Hard Time" O'Brien did not commit the crime but was subject to and punished by the local authorities; In ToS "A Taste of Armageddon" the entire crew violate local law by not reporting to the disintegration chambers; In ToS "City on the Edge of Forever" Kirk and Spock steal clothing, and Spock steals tools (that one concerned the human race); In "Patterns of Force" Kirk and Spock are arrested and interrogated after stealing clothing and attempting to infiltrate a government building; In VOY "The Chute" Paris and Kim are imprisoned after a false conviction; In VOY "Ex Post Facto" Paris is imprisoned after a false conviction. (Also, Nog attacked an army captain while under detention in New Mexico in DS9 "Little Green Men", and escaped without punishment by the local authorities.) If you are talking about "Justice", I don't think your characterization is quite accurate. In fact, I think you've flipped things? Quoting Memory Alpha at https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Justice_(episode) https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Justice_(episode): > Liato feels that Picard is suggesting some kind of a superiority. He suggests that the Enterprise just use their superior powers to rescue the boy, stating that they would just record him as a convicted criminal out of their reach, an advanced person who luckily escaped the barbarism of their "backward little world". But Picard tells them that he wants to honor and respect the Edo's rules and law, referencing the Prime Directive. and > Rivan is amazed at "the city" in the sky, and is surprised that with all this power, they do not just take Wesley. ... > Finally, Picard asks how the Edo God aliens would react if they were to violate the Prime Directive and Data answers that they would consider the Enterprise crew to be "deceitful and untrustworthy" and subsequently reminds Picard that the Edo God aliens warned them to not to interfere with their children below. Picard, before the sundown deadline when Wesley's execution was supposed to take place, instead appeals to the Edo god / high-tech "parent" and receives leniency. Its/their authority is above that of the Mediators, and recognized as such by the Edo.
amelius 3y ago
I guess nowadays scriptwriters can just come up with economic rules and play them out using a gazillion AI agents to see if they make sense.
uhtred 3y ago
Are we gearing up to cancelling the Ferengi now for being racist? If so I surrender. Lock me up, throw away the key. Quark is one of my favorite characters on DS9.
- ravenstine 3y ago
  Given enough time, everything is *-ist.
pierat 3y ago
> That's just kind of... bleh? Especially when, yes, you consider the ethnic stereotypes "culture of sneering traders who will cheat you" evokes. But even without those stereotypes, it's just kind of childish. I get on one level that the Bajorans were much like the historical Jewish peoples, conquered and then freed. But.... I always thought that the Ferenghi were the eponymous Jew stereotype. Short stature, crooked teeth, would cheat you at a drop of a hat, overly large ears, code of conduct to only deal with their race. It feels like they were created in the antisemitic light of "Happy Merchant" ( https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/happy-merchant https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/happy-merchant ). Obviously, those are antisemitic tropes for starting to dehumanize Jews. But damn, when I saw them in ST:TNG, that's exactly what I thought Rodenberry was trying to portray.
- edvinbesic 3y ago
  I thought the Ferenghi were supposed to represent human greed.
  - pmoriarty 3y ago
    They're cringe-inducing, antisemitic caricatures of Jewish people. They're kind of like the Star Trek counterpart to Jar Jar Binks.
    - shkkmo 3y ago
      I think seeing them as caricatures is itself antisemitic. There really are no similarities I see between the Ferengi and Jewish people. In TNG they might be one dimensional like Jar Jar, but I think the Ferengi get a lot of nuanced characters in DS9 that blow Jar Jar Binks out of the water in depth. Rom's evolution is particularly great.
      - pharrington 3y ago
        >There really are no similarities I see between the Ferengi and Jewish people. Correct. But there is a whole lotta similarity between the Ferengi and real life antisemetic caricatures, as is easily seen by any internet search for "antisemitic caricatures".
DropInIn 3y ago
It's what we see in our own world. A contract is a contract, provided all parties are in and beholden to the same jurisdiction. Theres plenty of examples of bad actors who violated contracts without recourse due to living where no action could be taken or the wronged party simply not having "standing" as a non-citizen....

Ekaros 3y ago

Then again even in our own world contract is only as strong as the legal system backing it. Treaties and agreements change things, but going beyond that it is often true.

zo1 3y ago

Judging by how many "contracts" between the west and Russia I imagine have been broken over the war in Ukraine, its actually deeper than many think. We forget how writers and comedians have a good pulse on human nature without all the fluff and feel good narrative we like to placate ourselves with.

zo1 3y ago
Let's also not forget: "War is good for business." In contrast with another one: "Peace is good for business"
- ant6n 3y ago
  Ah the 34th and 35th of rule of acquisition. It’s easy to get them mixed up.

true_religion 3y ago

Well, non Ferengi will often sign contracts then come back to claim they didn’t know it bound them to do illegal actions, or refuse to do something immoral or worse yet claim bankruptcy and try to run from debt. So this line is a warning about outsiders.

Ekaros 3y ago
Federation is great example of this. They go to planet and one of their crew members commits a crime... And then they fail to allow just punishment to happen to that crew member. Just goes to show that they feel superior to other races and do not follow any laws that might apply to them. With such people how could contract be contract?
- nurettin 3y ago
  Yeah but it's usually something akin to "capital punishment for pressing the grass" which is just ridiculously outlandish pardon the pun.
  - teekert 3y ago
    “When has justice ever been as simple as a rule book?“
    - nurettin 3y ago
      You know s1e8! The quote fits so well with the website's intentions.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- scarface_74 3y ago
  The “crime” that Wesley committed in one episode was that he was playing sports with some other teenagers and accidentally fell into a flower bed. The punishment? death.
- eesmith 3y ago
  > they fail to allow just punishment to happen to that crew member Which episode were you thinking of? I'm assuming TNG's "Justice"? In ToS "Wolf in the Fold", Scott did not commit the crime but was subject to the local authorities; In DS9 "Hard Time" O'Brien did not commit the crime but was subject to and punished by the local authorities; In ToS "A Taste of Armageddon" the entire crew violate local law by not reporting to the disintegration chambers; In ToS "City on the Edge of Forever" Kirk and Spock steal clothing, and Spock steals tools (that one concerned the human race); In "Patterns of Force" Kirk and Spock are arrested and interrogated after stealing clothing and attempting to infiltrate a government building; In VOY "The Chute" Paris and Kim are imprisoned after a false conviction; In VOY "Ex Post Facto" Paris is imprisoned after a false conviction. (Also, Nog attacked an army captain while under detention in New Mexico in DS9 "Little Green Men", and escaped without punishment by the local authorities.) If you are talking about "Justice", I don't think your characterization is quite accurate. In fact, I think you've flipped things? Quoting Memory Alpha at https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Justice_(episode) https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Justice_(episode): > Liato feels that Picard is suggesting some kind of a superiority. He suggests that the Enterprise just use their superior powers to rescue the boy, stating that they would just record him as a convicted criminal out of their reach, an advanced person who luckily escaped the barbarism of their "backward little world". But Picard tells them that he wants to honor and respect the Edo's rules and law, referencing the Prime Directive. and > Rivan is amazed at "the city" in the sky, and is surprised that with all this power, they do not just take Wesley. ... > Finally, Picard asks how the Edo God aliens would react if they were to violate the Prime Directive and Data answers that they would consider the Enterprise crew to be "deceitful and untrustworthy" and subsequently reminds Picard that the Edo God aliens warned them to not to interfere with their children below. Picard, before the sundown deadline when Wesley's execution was supposed to take place, instead appeals to the Edo god / high-tech "parent" and receives leniency. Its/their authority is above that of the Mediators, and recognized as such by the Edo.

amelius 3y ago

I guess nowadays scriptwriters can just come up with economic rules and play them out using a gazillion AI agents to see if they make sense.

uhtred 3y ago

Are we gearing up to cancelling the Ferengi now for being racist? If so I surrender. Lock me up, throw away the key. Quark is one of my favorite characters on DS9.

ravenstine 3y ago
Given enough time, everything is *-ist.

pierat 3y ago

> That's just kind of... bleh? Especially when, yes, you consider the ethnic stereotypes "culture of sneering traders who will cheat you" evokes. But even without those stereotypes, it's just kind of childish. I get on one level that the Bajorans were much like the historical Jewish peoples, conquered and then freed. But.... I always thought that the Ferenghi were the eponymous Jew stereotype. Short stature, crooked teeth, would cheat you at a drop of a hat, overly large ears, code of conduct to only deal with their race. It feels like they were created in the antisemitic light of "Happy Merchant" ( https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/happy-merchant https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/happy-merchant ). Obviously, those are antisemitic tropes for starting to dehumanize Jews. But damn, when I saw them in ST:TNG, that's exactly what I thought Rodenberry was trying to portray.

edvinbesic 3y ago
I thought the Ferenghi were supposed to represent human greed.
- pmoriarty 3y ago
  They're cringe-inducing, antisemitic caricatures of Jewish people. They're kind of like the Star Trek counterpart to Jar Jar Binks.
  - shkkmo 3y ago
    I think seeing them as caricatures is itself antisemitic. There really are no similarities I see between the Ferengi and Jewish people. In TNG they might be one dimensional like Jar Jar, but I think the Ferengi get a lot of nuanced characters in DS9 that blow Jar Jar Binks out of the water in depth. Rom's evolution is particularly great.
    - pharrington 3y ago
      >There really are no similarities I see between the Ferengi and Jewish people. Correct. But there is a whole lotta similarity between the Ferengi and real life antisemetic caricatures, as is easily seen by any internet search for "antisemitic caricatures".

DropInIn 3y ago

It's what we see in our own world. A contract is a contract, provided all parties are in and beholden to the same jurisdiction. Theres plenty of examples of bad actors who violated contracts without recourse due to living where no action could be taken or the wronged party simply not having "standing" as a non-citizen....