3 ms·
To a first approximation, Earth is a big ball of iron, so losing 50% of the iron in 333 cycles doesn't seem like that big a deal. Getting more iron is an energy
by jerf 3y ago
To a first approximation, Earth is a big ball of iron, so losing 50% of the iron in 333 cycles doesn't seem like that big a deal. Getting more iron is an energy issue rather than an availability issue.
I'm also somewhat concerned about the nanoparticle's effect on living things. It is likely that it is only a question of local exposure, as in general once they get out they should still rust in some relatively short period of time, and as Earth is the aforementioned big ball of iron, a bit of rust in the environment is quite unlikely to hurt anything because if it could hurt a thing that thing would already be dead, but locally nanoparticles would be something weird and I could see breathing them could be problematic. It is also entirely possible that it is safe up to surprisingly absurd levels too (your body is familiar with iron, and while there are toxic doses of iron you're not getting to them with nanoparticle exposure any time soon), it would just be something that would need some study.
- rsaesha 3y ago>Earth is a big ball of iron. No it's not. Inside the crust both Si and Al are more common. There is plenty of Fe, which is all in oxide form. Mining and processing required.
- dredmorbius 3y agoShrug. Iron is abundant on Earth, including within the crust, where it's the fourth most abundant element (after Oxygen, silicon, and aluminium), roughly 5% by mass. And yes, considerably more prevalent in the core. Iron and oxygen account for roughly 32% of Earth's total mass, each, the largest proportion of any element. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_mass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_mass> Sure, not as abundant as silicates. But nowhere near as rare as gold, platinum, and rhodium. Or even copper, silver, or lead. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth%27s_crust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth...> There's even a fair bit of it flowing though your veins and arteries right now. And yes, the major ore deposits are old. Most are BIFs (banded iron formations), and date to 1 bya or 3.5 bya, laid down by early oceanic algae for the most part. Sometimes it's more than fine to allow a slight exaggeration to pass without litigating it to death.
- rsaesha 3y agoLet's be reasonable here, mantle and nucleus iron don't matter to this analysis. Crust iron is all oxide. Fe at 5% average. In some locations obviously more concentrated up to 90% ore. Not all sites are viable for mining, and this is very important to understand. Just because there is plenty of iron out there doesn't mean all of it is commercial grade. This means energy input to turn iron oxide into iron, which the article claims could be used as fuel and/or long term energy storage. -Fuel I don't believe for a second. -Energy storage it's a maybe. It needs to commercially beat plenty of options. Which to me seems unlikely since the path still includes heat and steam engine which would incurr at a cicle loss of at least 50%. And this being conservative etc. Would mean a steam engine operated in a very narrow power band - which would mean a baselevel powerplant not a peaker powerplant. And didn't yet consider other possible losses, as for one, the Fe degradation over time. Energy cycles that count on heat and engine are wasteful. Could this waste be compensated by a much cheaper capex and/or opex relative to Li or similar batteries? That's a big Maybe. I myself want to believe there is a solution to renewables intermittency. But on this one in particular, I'm quite bearish for the reasons above.
- dredmorbius 3y agoThe proposal is clearly for energy storage, not as a primary energy source. To that extent, it resembles other synfuel concepts. The principle difference being that iron-as-energy-storage entails reduction rather than synthesis, in the chemical sense, for hydrocarbon synfuels. There's a lot to be said for options which provide long-term, "shelf-stable", environmentally-benign, high-volume energy storage with convenient storage, handling, and utilisation characteristics. I've looked with interest on petroleum-analogue hydrocarbon synthesis (Fisher-Tropf) and alcohol (Sabattier) processes for some years. Both have long (multi-decadal, approaching a century) of established use. Yes, the overall process is lossy (as little as 15% net energy recovery), but there are applications for which there are very few alternatives: powered heavier-than-air flight, marine transport, mobile use, off-grid primary or back-up power systems, heating, and industrial applications. I think I'd made abundantly clear that the abundance question is pedantry.
- marcosdumay 3y ago> once they get out they should still rust in some relatively short period of time Nanoparticles of iron oxide are already rust. There is certainly some inorganic phenomenon that will turn it into normal, aggregated rust. It probably requires water and some time. But those particles sound like the kind of thing that will stay for years on the atmosphere, and contaminate every living thing. And yeah, they are probably safe in some surprisingly large amount, so whatever direction it goes, we will only know after we start doing it.
- mrguyorama 3y agoMaybe then we could stop putting iron filings in children's cereal as a supplement.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago> so losing 50% of the iron in 333 cycles doesn't seem like that big a deal. Where does the Iron go??? It's not like Fission or Fusion is happening, right?!
- DennisP 3y agoPer the article, it goes into the HEPA filter. After that, recover it or dispose of it as you see fit.
- nick-of-time 3y ago> To a first approximation, Earth is a big ball of iron This is a totally useless thing to say unless you have secret technology for core mining.