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Fullack. Returned my framework laptop because of 3 hours battery life (streaming Netflix, measured multiple times), the 747 sound (customer support told me "wor

Fullack. Returned my framework laptop because of 3 hours battery life (streaming Netflix, measured multiple times), the 747 sound (customer support told me "works as expected"), and if I want to fry eggs I have other devices for that. I'd say "there's room for improvement".

111111IIIIIII 3y ago
Can you name a laptop that meets your expectations and lets me connect an external GPU? (not for gaming)
- scarface_74 3y ago
  I hate to be that guy. But why do you want a laptop for that? While my above list of requirements is basically implying a MacBook, if I wanted a really performant computer with a good GPU either internal or external for a high end use case, I would get a non-Mac desktop.
  - 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
    Why own a macbook when you could just have a non-Mac desktop instead?
    - lockhouse 3y ago
      Maybe they prefer macOS or need it for iOS development. Also, there really isn't anything out there like a MacBook Air. Thin, light, fast, fanless (silent), and truly all day battery life.
      - Aerbil313 3y ago
        Damn Apple. Macs have no single drawback except repairability, not even vendor lock-in (you can flash Asahi). That’s it. I’m going for a Mac except the Framework I previously planned for. Single digit battery life shouldn’t be thing in 2023.
        111111IIIIIII 3y ago
        No CUDA support
        lockhouse 3y ago
        The lock-in for that is on Nvidia's side, not Apple's.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        111111IIIIIII 3y ago
        No it's not. macOS explicitly will not support external GPUs of any kind. It's not limited to Nvidia, although Nvidia is clearly the target.
        lockhouse 3y ago
        Can I use CUDA without an Nvidia graphics card? That was my point, just like Apple they’ve locked this functionality to their hardware. Which is fine, they developed it, it’s their right to do so. I’m well aware of the limitations of discrete graphics on Macs.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      Because a desktop isn’t portable? When I go into either one of my corporate offices (rarely) or a client’s office, it’s nice to be able to just plug my laptop in the night before and not have to worry about a finding any place to plug it in during the day, going back and forth between conference rooms, etc. I also go home to see my parents for a couple of weeks sometimes and work from there. And I realize this is a very esoteric case. But I also do the whole “digital nomad” thing half the year.
      - 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
        > Because a desktop isn’t portable It almost sounfs like you knew the answer to your question the entire time.
        scarface_74 3y ago
        But once you’re asking about an external GPU, portability isn’t the most important thing is it?
        111111IIIIIII 3y ago
        I'm not sure what you're talking about. My external GPU enclosure is extremely portable. My everyday backpack fits a laptop with external GPU and a weekend's worth of luggage very comfortably.
  - diffeomorphism 3y ago
    Because I don't want two devices? Your answer of "just buy another $1000+ computer" is a bit out of touch.
- Turskarama 3y ago
  How many people need a device that's both portable AND needs an external GPU? That's incredibly niche.
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    "has thunderbolt or full-fledged USB4" shouldn't be niche.
  - nomel 3y ago
    The nice thing about an eGPU is your portable becomes much more portable, since portables with reasonable GPUs are heavy, big, and hot. The bad thing about eGPUs is they're ~$250 on top of the GPU cost, which is a little to close to a second desktop PC. I gave up and went with cloud (ShadowPC).
  - 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
    > That's incredibly niche. Irrelevant given how easy it is to do. In macOS it's literally the equivalent of a feature flag.
- rtpg 3y ago
  The intel Macbook Airs let you plug in an eGPU.
  - 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
    Yes, and there is no excuse for why mac silicon does not
- nl 3y ago
  Define "connect an external GPU? (not for gaming)" I can connect to an external GPU via SSH or Jupyter from my MBP fine. The internal GPU is also surprisingly capable for machine learning (which is the only usage I'm really interested in).
xarope 3y ago
I think that's a consequence of the gen 11/12 Intel chips used? I think the AMD versions would be much cooler and have better battery life (or so I hope!)
- paulmd 3y ago
  it's a consequence of framework not having good power management/speedstep support, although supposedly it's gotten better recently. Using AMD chips is also not a magic bullet if you don't implement power management properly - a 25W AMD chip and a 25W Intel chip notionally pull the same power (although there are always games).
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  One data point I can contribute is that of two "cousin" HP laptops: Elite Book 845 G8 with an AMD Ryzen 5 PRO 5650U and 840 G8 with an Intel i7-1165G7. These are 14" "Ultrabooks" with the same rated battery capacity, dimensions and almost the same components. The AMD one has 64 GB of RAM and a very bright screen (advertised as 1000 nits). The Intel one only has 32 GB and a very dim, 6 bit screen. They both lack a dedicated GPU. Under Linux with the AMD one, while doing basic dicking around on the internet and light Rust dev with intellij, I get a good 5-6 hours without draining the battery fully. The screen set to the minimum or almost (it's more than enough in a bright apartment – around 50% is enough when outside if the sun doesn't shine directly on it). I haven't tried this computer under Windows while unplugged. With the Intel one, in the same conditions as above, except setting the screen a good 2/3-3/4 (the screen is absurdly bad and dim, so I need to up the backlight) I only get around 4 hours. Under Windows, it seems similar. But under Windows, standby seems to drain less battery (not counting when it hibernates). The PC does not have the option to enable S3. Both laptops have the "battery saver" function on, which means it only charges to about 80% of the rated capacity. "Linux" means Arch with the latest "zen" kernel and X11. Windows is up-to-date 11 22h2. I didn't bother doing any specific tuning for either OS. One other data point is a newer model of the same PC with a 12th gen i5 part (1240p I think but really not sure). My colleague who has it complains that the fan is always on. However, he uses Windows, and even on my 11th gen I do find the fan tends to come on fairly often, while it basically never does under Linux.
redroyal 3y ago
I’m not a fan. Thinkpads have had magnesium enclosures since 2000. I don’t like the framework design or philosophy. You’d have to be insane to buy an Intel laptop for the same money as an ARM Macbook. This reusable thing doesn’t make a bit of sense to me either. Do you really want to be using a 10 year old chassis with new parts? What’s the point of trying to save the environment when the other 8 billion could care less?
- nulld3v 3y ago
  > This reusable thing doesn’t make a bit of sense to me either. Do you really want to be using a 10 year old chassis with new parts? The chassis is replacable. You simply order a new chassis, pop the main board out of the old chassis and put it into the new one. > What’s the point of trying to save the environment when the other 8 billion could care less? ...
- november84 3y ago
  If the parts are made to fit the chaos and the design is reusable, what does it matter of the chaos is old?...unless say it's greatly worn and the integrity is impacted....but then you can buy a replacement part. Their pricing on the 13 is fair for the components they offer. I'm not in the market for a new laptop, still rocking a 2015 mbp...but if I need a new one, I hope they're still around.
- stepbeek 3y ago
  Unless you don’t want a Mac? I like my Mac, but prefer Linux for dev. Having a beefy AMD framework 16” that I can refresh in 3 years sounds great to me. > What’s the point of trying to save the environment when the other 8 billion could care less? “What’s the point in doing things you personally care about if there isn’t worldwide consensus?”
  - gobip 3y ago
    Hopefully soon, linux will be running just fine on the Apple Silicon.
    - 3y ago
gbil 3y ago
running Windows or Linux ? If I remember correctly they had issues anyhow with power leak on standby from the expansion cards but under Linux battery life was much worst anyhow

111111IIIIIII 3y ago

Can you name a laptop that meets your expectations and lets me connect an external GPU? (not for gaming)

scarface_74 3y ago
I hate to be that guy. But why do you want a laptop for that? While my above list of requirements is basically implying a MacBook, if I wanted a really performant computer with a good GPU either internal or external for a high end use case, I would get a non-Mac desktop.
- 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
  Why own a macbook when you could just have a non-Mac desktop instead?
  - lockhouse 3y ago
    Maybe they prefer macOS or need it for iOS development. Also, there really isn't anything out there like a MacBook Air. Thin, light, fast, fanless (silent), and truly all day battery life.
    - Aerbil313 3y ago
      Damn Apple. Macs have no single drawback except repairability, not even vendor lock-in (you can flash Asahi). That’s it. I’m going for a Mac except the Framework I previously planned for. Single digit battery life shouldn’t be thing in 2023.
      - 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
        No CUDA support
        lockhouse 3y ago
        The lock-in for that is on Nvidia's side, not Apple's.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        111111IIIIIII 3y ago
        No it's not. macOS explicitly will not support external GPUs of any kind. It's not limited to Nvidia, although Nvidia is clearly the target.
        lockhouse 3y ago
        Can I use CUDA without an Nvidia graphics card? That was my point, just like Apple they’ve locked this functionality to their hardware. Which is fine, they developed it, it’s their right to do so. I’m well aware of the limitations of discrete graphics on Macs.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    Because a desktop isn’t portable? When I go into either one of my corporate offices (rarely) or a client’s office, it’s nice to be able to just plug my laptop in the night before and not have to worry about a finding any place to plug it in during the day, going back and forth between conference rooms, etc. I also go home to see my parents for a couple of weeks sometimes and work from there. And I realize this is a very esoteric case. But I also do the whole “digital nomad” thing half the year.
    - 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
      > Because a desktop isn’t portable It almost sounfs like you knew the answer to your question the entire time.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        But once you’re asking about an external GPU, portability isn’t the most important thing is it?
        111111IIIIIII 3y ago
        I'm not sure what you're talking about. My external GPU enclosure is extremely portable. My everyday backpack fits a laptop with external GPU and a weekend's worth of luggage very comfortably.
- diffeomorphism 3y ago
  Because I don't want two devices? Your answer of "just buy another $1000+ computer" is a bit out of touch.
Turskarama 3y ago
How many people need a device that's both portable AND needs an external GPU? That's incredibly niche.
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  "has thunderbolt or full-fledged USB4" shouldn't be niche.
- nomel 3y ago
  The nice thing about an eGPU is your portable becomes much more portable, since portables with reasonable GPUs are heavy, big, and hot. The bad thing about eGPUs is they're ~$250 on top of the GPU cost, which is a little to close to a second desktop PC. I gave up and went with cloud (ShadowPC).
- 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
  > That's incredibly niche. Irrelevant given how easy it is to do. In macOS it's literally the equivalent of a feature flag.
rtpg 3y ago
The intel Macbook Airs let you plug in an eGPU.
- 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
  Yes, and there is no excuse for why mac silicon does not
nl 3y ago
Define "connect an external GPU? (not for gaming)" I can connect to an external GPU via SSH or Jupyter from my MBP fine. The internal GPU is also surprisingly capable for machine learning (which is the only usage I'm really interested in).

xarope 3y ago

I think that's a consequence of the gen 11/12 Intel chips used? I think the AMD versions would be much cooler and have better battery life (or so I hope!)

paulmd 3y ago
it's a consequence of framework not having good power management/speedstep support, although supposedly it's gotten better recently. Using AMD chips is also not a magic bullet if you don't implement power management properly - a 25W AMD chip and a 25W Intel chip notionally pull the same power (although there are always games).
vladvasiliu 3y ago
One data point I can contribute is that of two "cousin" HP laptops: Elite Book 845 G8 with an AMD Ryzen 5 PRO 5650U and 840 G8 with an Intel i7-1165G7. These are 14" "Ultrabooks" with the same rated battery capacity, dimensions and almost the same components. The AMD one has 64 GB of RAM and a very bright screen (advertised as 1000 nits). The Intel one only has 32 GB and a very dim, 6 bit screen. They both lack a dedicated GPU. Under Linux with the AMD one, while doing basic dicking around on the internet and light Rust dev with intellij, I get a good 5-6 hours without draining the battery fully. The screen set to the minimum or almost (it's more than enough in a bright apartment – around 50% is enough when outside if the sun doesn't shine directly on it). I haven't tried this computer under Windows while unplugged. With the Intel one, in the same conditions as above, except setting the screen a good 2/3-3/4 (the screen is absurdly bad and dim, so I need to up the backlight) I only get around 4 hours. Under Windows, it seems similar. But under Windows, standby seems to drain less battery (not counting when it hibernates). The PC does not have the option to enable S3. Both laptops have the "battery saver" function on, which means it only charges to about 80% of the rated capacity. "Linux" means Arch with the latest "zen" kernel and X11. Windows is up-to-date 11 22h2. I didn't bother doing any specific tuning for either OS. One other data point is a newer model of the same PC with a 12th gen i5 part (1240p I think but really not sure). My colleague who has it complains that the fan is always on. However, he uses Windows, and even on my 11th gen I do find the fan tends to come on fairly often, while it basically never does under Linux.

redroyal 3y ago

I’m not a fan. Thinkpads have had magnesium enclosures since 2000. I don’t like the framework design or philosophy. You’d have to be insane to buy an Intel laptop for the same money as an ARM Macbook. This reusable thing doesn’t make a bit of sense to me either. Do you really want to be using a 10 year old chassis with new parts? What’s the point of trying to save the environment when the other 8 billion could care less?

nulld3v 3y ago
> This reusable thing doesn’t make a bit of sense to me either. Do you really want to be using a 10 year old chassis with new parts? The chassis is replacable. You simply order a new chassis, pop the main board out of the old chassis and put it into the new one. > What’s the point of trying to save the environment when the other 8 billion could care less? ...
november84 3y ago
If the parts are made to fit the chaos and the design is reusable, what does it matter of the chaos is old?...unless say it's greatly worn and the integrity is impacted....but then you can buy a replacement part. Their pricing on the 13 is fair for the components they offer. I'm not in the market for a new laptop, still rocking a 2015 mbp...but if I need a new one, I hope they're still around.
stepbeek 3y ago
Unless you don’t want a Mac? I like my Mac, but prefer Linux for dev. Having a beefy AMD framework 16” that I can refresh in 3 years sounds great to me. > What’s the point of trying to save the environment when the other 8 billion could care less? “What’s the point in doing things you personally care about if there isn’t worldwide consensus?”
- gobip 3y ago
  Hopefully soon, linux will be running just fine on the Apple Silicon.
  - 3y ago

gbil 3y ago

running Windows or Linux ? If I remember correctly they had issues anyhow with power leak on standby from the expansion cards but under Linux battery life was much worst anyhow