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"Most Indians oppose legal abortion" (https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/03/02/son-preference-and-abortion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/03

by swexbe 3y ago

"Most Indians oppose legal abortion" (https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/03/02/son-preference-and-abortion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/03/02/son-preferen...) "Classical Hindu texts are strongly opposed to abortion: one text compares abortion to the killing of a priest another text considers abortion a worse sin than killing one's parents another text says that a woman who aborts her child will lose her caste" (https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/hinduethics/abortion_1.shtml https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/hinduethic...) Abortion is illegal in a majority of Muslim majority countries. The exceptions are usually post soviet states

GloomyBoots 3y ago
There’s a funny, widespread phenomenon of people invoking cultural relativity and Christian particularism specifically on issues with the most cross-cultural consensus.
pron 3y ago
I didn't talk about opposing abortion, but about the absolutist view that considers abortion the killing of a person. For example, in Judaism abortion is forbidden in many cases, but not because it is considered killing a person (nor is it a worse offence than, say, lighting a match on the Sabbath). When Islam forbids abortion, it does not forbid it because the foetus is considered a person (until four months, at least). The absolutist position that a foetus is a person since conception or soon thereafter and therefore abortion is forbidden because it is akin to murder is a largely Christian belief (maybe Buddhist, too). BTW, abortion is legal in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Sudan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan in more situations than it is in some American states.
- GloomyBoots 3y ago
  > the absolutist view Why do you keep using that word? Having a position isn't absolutist. Additionally, this is also the biological view on abortion (moral judgments on such acts as killing aside). > BTW, abortion is legal in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Sudan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan in more situations than it is in some American states. Abortion is more legal in America than Europe as a whole, as well. What does this signify? Absolutely nothing. > When Islam forbids abortion, it does not forbid it because the foetus is considered a person (until four months, at least). Sure, if you discount the Shia, Malikis, Ibadis, etc. And the rest are tend to be very prohibitive even before that point. There's nothing peculiarly Christian about the Christian conception of life. Of the four major religions in terms of population, three share it, as do significant chunks of the fourth.
  - pron 3y ago
    > Why do you keep using that word? Having a position isn't absolutist. I call the position that abortion is forbidden because the foetus is a person and therefore abortion is akin to murder absolutist. > Abortion is more legal in America than Europe as a whole, as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States The portion of the population living under an abortion ban of under 10-12 weeks is around 5% in Europe (due to Poland) and closer to 15% in the US. These Americans live under legal restrictions that are otherwise almost entirely confined to Africa, South America, and Poland: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-where-abortion-is-illegal https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries... https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/how-the-u-s-compares-with-the-rest-of-the-world-on-abortion-rights https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/how-the-u-s-compares-w... While Texas abortion law is stricter than Saudi Arabia's, it is still more lenient than Iran's or Madagascar's. > Additionally, this is also the biological view on abortion It is certainly not. A foetus is a living thing, but so is lettuce; or a tumour. Biology has no view on when the foetus becomes a person, i.e. a being with the same moral value as that of an actual live human. That is purely a question of spiritual faith. Biology can tell us, however, when a foetus is a thing that can experience pain. The common view is at 24 weeks, but some think it could be as early as 12 weeks. But again, a mouse also feels pain and yet not considered a person. > Sure, if you discount the Shia, Malikis, Ibadis, etc. And the rest are tend to be very prohibitive even before that point. Again, prohibitive does not mean forbidden because it is murder. Islam forbids consuming alcohol and Judaism forbids tattoos or lighting a fire on Saturday -- to a stronger degree than they forbid abortion, BTW -- but they don't forbid these things, or abortion, because they are the same as or similar to murder. > There's nothing peculiarly Christian about the Christian conception of life. There certainly is. It is primarily Christianity that forbids abortion because of the belief that the foetus is a person at or close to conception. It's because of that the the issue takes on a particular vehemence where Christianity is popular.
    - GloomyBoots 3y ago
      > I call the position that abortion is forbidden because the foetus is a person and therefore abortion is akin to murder absolutist. I know. It just has no relation to the actual meaning of absolutist. > The portion of the population living under an abortion ban of under 10-12 weeks is around 5% in Europe (due to Poland) and closer to 15% in the US. These Americans live under legal restrictions that are otherwise almost entirely confined to Africa, South America, and Poland: The geographically European portion of Russia alone accounts for around 15% of the continent's people, and Russia draws the line at 12 weeks. The next-most populous country, Germany, accounting for around another 10%, has not legalized abortion whatsoever, except in extenuating circumstances. Italy, accounting for another 8%, also draws the line at 12 weeks. If we play with the arbitrary 12-week line you've drawn, and raise it to, say, 14, we pull in France, Spain, and others. > It is certainly not. A foetus is a living thing, but so is lettuce; or a tumour. Biology has no view on when the foetus becomes a person, i.e. a being with the same moral value as that of an actual live human. That is purely a question of spiritual faith. This is kind of an interesting line of thinking. It stands to reason, then, that if we're talking about western countries nurtured by Platonic, Aristotelian, and Christian philosophical and religious traditions, it makes sense to preserve the notion of life that follows from them, the one that you're arguing against for some reason. Pain is irrelevant to the question of humanity. > Again, prohibitive does not mean forbidden because it is murder. Islam forbids consuming alcohol and Judaism forbids tattoos or lighting a fire on Saturday -- to a stronger degree than they forbid abortion, BTW -- but they don't forbid these things, or abortion, because they are the same as or similar to murder. The Malikis, for instance, believe that a fetus is ensouled at the moment of conception. What's more, I think it's hard to make the argument that most peoples consider a fetus as something totally unrelated to human life. Maybe an inferior or developing case, but still worthy of respect, which is what I've seen more often than the laissez-faire attitude towards them that you ascribe to Judaism (which I am ignorant on, so I won't speak there). Is it possible that you're projecting your own cultural background on to others? > There certainly is. It is primarily Christianity that forbids abortion because of the belief that the foetus is a person at or close to conception. It's because of that the the issue takes on a particular vehemence where Christianity is popular. Again, three of the four biggest religions, together accounting for a simple majority of the global population, are in agreement. Additionally, another 15% or are irreligious, the majority of whom are likely from a cultural background founded on those religions.

by swexbe 3y ago

GloomyBoots 3y ago

There’s a funny, widespread phenomenon of people invoking cultural relativity and Christian particularism specifically on issues with the most cross-cultural consensus.

pron 3y ago

I didn't talk about opposing abortion, but about the absolutist view that considers abortion the killing of a person. For example, in Judaism abortion is forbidden in many cases, but not because it is considered killing a person (nor is it a worse offence than, say, lighting a match on the Sabbath). When Islam forbids abortion, it does not forbid it because the foetus is considered a person (until four months, at least). The absolutist position that a foetus is a person since conception or soon thereafter and therefore abortion is forbidden because it is akin to murder is a largely Christian belief (maybe Buddhist, too). BTW, abortion is legal in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Sudan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan in more situations than it is in some American states.

GloomyBoots 3y ago
> the absolutist view Why do you keep using that word? Having a position isn't absolutist. Additionally, this is also the biological view on abortion (moral judgments on such acts as killing aside). > BTW, abortion is legal in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Sudan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan in more situations than it is in some American states. Abortion is more legal in America than Europe as a whole, as well. What does this signify? Absolutely nothing. > When Islam forbids abortion, it does not forbid it because the foetus is considered a person (until four months, at least). Sure, if you discount the Shia, Malikis, Ibadis, etc. And the rest are tend to be very prohibitive even before that point. There's nothing peculiarly Christian about the Christian conception of life. Of the four major religions in terms of population, three share it, as do significant chunks of the fourth.
- pron 3y ago
  > Why do you keep using that word? Having a position isn't absolutist. I call the position that abortion is forbidden because the foetus is a person and therefore abortion is akin to murder absolutist. > Abortion is more legal in America than Europe as a whole, as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States The portion of the population living under an abortion ban of under 10-12 weeks is around 5% in Europe (due to Poland) and closer to 15% in the US. These Americans live under legal restrictions that are otherwise almost entirely confined to Africa, South America, and Poland: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-where-abortion-is-illegal https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries... https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/how-the-u-s-compares-with-the-rest-of-the-world-on-abortion-rights https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/how-the-u-s-compares-w... While Texas abortion law is stricter than Saudi Arabia's, it is still more lenient than Iran's or Madagascar's. > Additionally, this is also the biological view on abortion It is certainly not. A foetus is a living thing, but so is lettuce; or a tumour. Biology has no view on when the foetus becomes a person, i.e. a being with the same moral value as that of an actual live human. That is purely a question of spiritual faith. Biology can tell us, however, when a foetus is a thing that can experience pain. The common view is at 24 weeks, but some think it could be as early as 12 weeks. But again, a mouse also feels pain and yet not considered a person. > Sure, if you discount the Shia, Malikis, Ibadis, etc. And the rest are tend to be very prohibitive even before that point. Again, prohibitive does not mean forbidden because it is murder. Islam forbids consuming alcohol and Judaism forbids tattoos or lighting a fire on Saturday -- to a stronger degree than they forbid abortion, BTW -- but they don't forbid these things, or abortion, because they are the same as or similar to murder. > There's nothing peculiarly Christian about the Christian conception of life. There certainly is. It is primarily Christianity that forbids abortion because of the belief that the foetus is a person at or close to conception. It's because of that the the issue takes on a particular vehemence where Christianity is popular.
  - GloomyBoots 3y ago
    > I call the position that abortion is forbidden because the foetus is a person and therefore abortion is akin to murder absolutist. I know. It just has no relation to the actual meaning of absolutist. > The portion of the population living under an abortion ban of under 10-12 weeks is around 5% in Europe (due to Poland) and closer to 15% in the US. These Americans live under legal restrictions that are otherwise almost entirely confined to Africa, South America, and Poland: The geographically European portion of Russia alone accounts for around 15% of the continent's people, and Russia draws the line at 12 weeks. The next-most populous country, Germany, accounting for around another 10%, has not legalized abortion whatsoever, except in extenuating circumstances. Italy, accounting for another 8%, also draws the line at 12 weeks. If we play with the arbitrary 12-week line you've drawn, and raise it to, say, 14, we pull in France, Spain, and others. > It is certainly not. A foetus is a living thing, but so is lettuce; or a tumour. Biology has no view on when the foetus becomes a person, i.e. a being with the same moral value as that of an actual live human. That is purely a question of spiritual faith. This is kind of an interesting line of thinking. It stands to reason, then, that if we're talking about western countries nurtured by Platonic, Aristotelian, and Christian philosophical and religious traditions, it makes sense to preserve the notion of life that follows from them, the one that you're arguing against for some reason. Pain is irrelevant to the question of humanity. > Again, prohibitive does not mean forbidden because it is murder. Islam forbids consuming alcohol and Judaism forbids tattoos or lighting a fire on Saturday -- to a stronger degree than they forbid abortion, BTW -- but they don't forbid these things, or abortion, because they are the same as or similar to murder. The Malikis, for instance, believe that a fetus is ensouled at the moment of conception. What's more, I think it's hard to make the argument that most peoples consider a fetus as something totally unrelated to human life. Maybe an inferior or developing case, but still worthy of respect, which is what I've seen more often than the laissez-faire attitude towards them that you ascribe to Judaism (which I am ignorant on, so I won't speak there). Is it possible that you're projecting your own cultural background on to others? > There certainly is. It is primarily Christianity that forbids abortion because of the belief that the foetus is a person at or close to conception. It's because of that the the issue takes on a particular vehemence where Christianity is popular. Again, three of the four biggest religions, together accounting for a simple majority of the global population, are in agreement. Additionally, another 15% or are irreligious, the majority of whom are likely from a cultural background founded on those religions.