7 ms·

Well that's better than slowly asphyxiating or dying of hypothermia, probably didn't even know what hit them.

m3kw9 3y ago
I’d they surfaced they cook under the sun
xwdv 3y ago
It’s definitely better for them, but its infuriating that this CEO died thinking he was a genius for building this shitty sub with very few safety precautions.
- soperj 3y ago
  At least he died doing it and not someone he employed.
  - arthurcolle 3y ago
    Well his actions lead to several other people dying too. Maybe the ticket they bought has a contract that exempts OceanGate (tragic name for a company going through their own #OceanGate a la Watergate) from any liability, but I hope this company gets annihilated in court with criminal and civil penalties. Slacking this hard on safety for a submarine engineering company should not be tolerated in our rapidly advancing industrial society.
    - az226 3y ago
      OceanGateGate
    - ipython 3y ago
      My first thought was Heavens Gate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_(religious_group) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_(religious_g...
      - optimalsolver 3y ago
        Same here. 39 to beam up.
        Vecr 3y ago
        Better buy the joystick they used before it goes like the Heaven's Gate tennis shoes.
    - sonotathrowaway 3y ago
      Saying that you absolve yourself of liability doesn’t excuse gross negligence though.
  - dheera 3y ago
    It's also probably related to the "launch or die" ecosystem that Y Combinator, Sand Hill investors, and pretty much the entire ecosystem promotes. When was the last time an investor handed an additional $10 million check for 0% to a startup to improve and test their safety systems before launching? Instead their usual mandate is "launch yesterday or die". Which is okay for a SaaS platform or grocery delivery app, but not a deep sea vessel. Today's version of capitalism is every bit responsible for tragedies like this. While the CEO is directly at fault for certain things, the system is equally at fault for raising and educating a CEO (and huge numbers of post-2000s CEOs) to be like that.
    - logifail 3y ago
      > their usual mandate is "launch yesterday or die". Which is okay for a SaaS platform or grocery delivery app, but not a deep sea vessel Hypothetical users of the SaaS platform or grocery delivery app who find out later that their personal information wasn't handled with the appropriate safeguards might disagree with that one. > Today's version of capitalism is every bit responsible for tragedies like this Correct.
    - nyolfen 3y ago
      true, i've never heard of issues with the engineering of a submarine produced under socialism
      - yoyohello13 3y ago
        'Not capitalism' is not the same as 'socialism'
        dheera 3y ago
        Yep, exactly. I was suggesting we need a better system in the future, not a worse system.
        xwdv 3y ago
        Techno-feudalism? I’m curious what other systems you think could be better.
  - theklub 3y ago
    Honestly given all the red flags he ignored it seems like he had a death wish, or at the very least got a thrill from risking his life on these trips. Otherwise I can't wrap my head around the stupidity of the whole thing.
    - MisterBastahrd 3y ago
      Some ultra-rich people have nigh-unconquerable survivorship biases
  - xwdv 3y ago
    In his mind he never properly died though, it was damn near instant. He got to live his whole life and never realize the consequences of his actions through a slow, violent epiphany.
- squarefoot 3y ago
  What's more infuriating is that they fired an employee who raised safety concerns. https://www.forbes.com/sites/katherinehamilton/2023/06/21/oceangate-employee-warned-of-major-safety-issues-with-titan-sub-in-2018-he-was-soon-fired/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/katherinehamilton/2023/06/21/oc... (already submitted minutes ago)
- wilg 3y ago
  Yes, if this other person I know from the internet had more mental or physical pain I would be happier.
- swayvil 3y ago
  It's that Dunninger Kruger thing. And it's nigh ubiquitous. I live in this little personal bubble. Believing with great confidence that the edge of my bubble and the edge of reality are one and the same is actually quite empowering. Those who Dunninger Kruger with greater intensity tend to win.
- basisword 3y ago
  Do you have any particularl inside info on this other than what you’ve read in the news over the last couple of days? They’re pretty strong accusations you're making.
  - thefourthchime 3y ago
    It's all over this thread
  - lamontcg 3y ago
    Here you go: https://web.archive.org/web/20230619161930/https://oceangate.com/news-and-media/blog/2019-0221-why-titan-is-not-classed.html https://web.archive.org/web/20230619161930/https://oceangate...
    - tostr 3y ago
      From the page you linked: >Why Isn't Titan Classed? [...] >Classing assures ship owners, insurers, and regulators that vessels are designed, constructed and inspected to accepted standards. Classing may be effective at filtering out unsatisfactory designers and builders, but the established standards do little to weed out subpar vessel operators – because classing agencies only focus on validating the physical vessel. [...] > The vast majority of marine (and aviation) accidents are a result of operator error, not mechanical failure. Did they not consider that the reason for this fact is, oh I don't know, maybe because the vessels have passed the checks for mechanical integrity? You can't make this stuff up...
deanc 3y ago
Can someone walk me through what would have happened, physically, to a human body in the moment this happened. I’m curious. Similar to wondering what happens to people in space.
- js2 3y ago
  In outer space, you pass out in about 15 seconds from lack of O2 to the brain, then your heart stops and eventually you freeze. NASA has done the experiments: > Chimpanzees can withstand even longer exposures. In a pair of papers from NASA in 1965 and 1967, researchers found that chimpanzees could survive up to 3.5 minutes in near-vacuum conditions with no apparent cognitive defects, as measured by complex tasks months later. One chimp that was exposed for three minutes, however, showed lasting behavioral changes. Another died shortly after exposure, likely due to cardiac arrest. Then there was this oops: > In 1965 a technician inside a vacuum chamber at Johnson Space Center in Houston accidentally depressurized his space suit by disrupting a hose. After 12 to 15 seconds he lost consciousness. He regained it at 27 seconds, after his suit was repressurized to about half that of sea level. The man reported that his last memory before blacking out was of the moisture on his tongue beginning to boil as well as a loss of taste sensation that lingered for four days following the accident, but he was otherwise unharmed. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/survival-in-space-unprotected-possible/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/survival-in-space... Dying in a submarine would be very different. The pressure differential in space is a single atmosphere. Water increases by about one atmosphere every 33 feet. At Titanic's depth it's ~ 368 atmospheres of pressure. Reddit discussion from 3 years ago: https://old.reddit.com/r/submarines/comments/gy1wc6/what_exactly_does_happen_when_a_submarine_goes/ https://old.reddit.com/r/submarines/comments/gy1wc6/what_exa... > The collapse of a submarine pressure hull happens quick, just 37 milliseconds in the case of the Scorpion. The incoming water had a velocity of about 2,000 mph. [...] Over such small time scales, there is no time for the water or the steel hull to absorb any heat from the rapidly compressing air inside of the submarine. Because no heat is transferred from the air to the water or hull, the compression is adiabatic. [...] The collapse halted when the air pressure was approximately equal to the water pressure at 1,530 feet, which is 4,630,000 Pa. [...] 1,122°F. That was at 1,530 feet. Contact was lost with the Titan at 1 hour and 45 minutes into its dive. A typical dive to the bottom took it 3 hours. So it was likely at least halfway to the bottom (6000 feet). Its implosion would have involved even more spectacular forces. They were dead before they knew what happened, incinerated and pulverized. There are no bodies to recover. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Titan_submersible_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Titan_submersible_inciden... See "Why the USS SCORPION (SSN 589) Was Lost 50 years Ago" https://www.iusscaa.org/articles/brucerule/scorpion_loss_50years.pdf https://www.iusscaa.org/articles/brucerule/scorpion_loss_50y...

I’d they surfaced they cook under the sun

xwdv 3y ago

It’s definitely better for them, but its infuriating that this CEO died thinking he was a genius for building this shitty sub with very few safety precautions.

soperj 3y ago
At least he died doing it and not someone he employed.
- arthurcolle 3y ago
  Well his actions lead to several other people dying too. Maybe the ticket they bought has a contract that exempts OceanGate (tragic name for a company going through their own #OceanGate a la Watergate) from any liability, but I hope this company gets annihilated in court with criminal and civil penalties. Slacking this hard on safety for a submarine engineering company should not be tolerated in our rapidly advancing industrial society.
  - az226 3y ago
    OceanGateGate
  - ipython 3y ago
    My first thought was Heavens Gate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_(religious_group) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_(religious_g...
    - optimalsolver 3y ago
      Same here. 39 to beam up.
      - Vecr 3y ago
        Better buy the joystick they used before it goes like the Heaven's Gate tennis shoes.
  - sonotathrowaway 3y ago
    Saying that you absolve yourself of liability doesn’t excuse gross negligence though.
- dheera 3y ago
  It's also probably related to the "launch or die" ecosystem that Y Combinator, Sand Hill investors, and pretty much the entire ecosystem promotes. When was the last time an investor handed an additional $10 million check for 0% to a startup to improve and test their safety systems before launching? Instead their usual mandate is "launch yesterday or die". Which is okay for a SaaS platform or grocery delivery app, but not a deep sea vessel. Today's version of capitalism is every bit responsible for tragedies like this. While the CEO is directly at fault for certain things, the system is equally at fault for raising and educating a CEO (and huge numbers of post-2000s CEOs) to be like that.
  - logifail 3y ago
    > their usual mandate is "launch yesterday or die". Which is okay for a SaaS platform or grocery delivery app, but not a deep sea vessel Hypothetical users of the SaaS platform or grocery delivery app who find out later that their personal information wasn't handled with the appropriate safeguards might disagree with that one. > Today's version of capitalism is every bit responsible for tragedies like this Correct.
  - nyolfen 3y ago
    true, i've never heard of issues with the engineering of a submarine produced under socialism
    - yoyohello13 3y ago
      'Not capitalism' is not the same as 'socialism'
      - dheera 3y ago
        Yep, exactly. I was suggesting we need a better system in the future, not a worse system.
        xwdv 3y ago
        Techno-feudalism? I’m curious what other systems you think could be better.
- theklub 3y ago
  Honestly given all the red flags he ignored it seems like he had a death wish, or at the very least got a thrill from risking his life on these trips. Otherwise I can't wrap my head around the stupidity of the whole thing.
  - MisterBastahrd 3y ago
    Some ultra-rich people have nigh-unconquerable survivorship biases
- xwdv 3y ago
  In his mind he never properly died though, it was damn near instant. He got to live his whole life and never realize the consequences of his actions through a slow, violent epiphany.
squarefoot 3y ago
What's more infuriating is that they fired an employee who raised safety concerns. https://www.forbes.com/sites/katherinehamilton/2023/06/21/oceangate-employee-warned-of-major-safety-issues-with-titan-sub-in-2018-he-was-soon-fired/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/katherinehamilton/2023/06/21/oc... (already submitted minutes ago)
wilg 3y ago
Yes, if this other person I know from the internet had more mental or physical pain I would be happier.
swayvil 3y ago
It's that Dunninger Kruger thing. And it's nigh ubiquitous. I live in this little personal bubble. Believing with great confidence that the edge of my bubble and the edge of reality are one and the same is actually quite empowering. Those who Dunninger Kruger with greater intensity tend to win.
basisword 3y ago
Do you have any particularl inside info on this other than what you’ve read in the news over the last couple of days? They’re pretty strong accusations you're making.
- thefourthchime 3y ago
  It's all over this thread
- lamontcg 3y ago
  Here you go: https://web.archive.org/web/20230619161930/https://oceangate.com/news-and-media/blog/2019-0221-why-titan-is-not-classed.html https://web.archive.org/web/20230619161930/https://oceangate...
  - tostr 3y ago
    From the page you linked: >Why Isn't Titan Classed? [...] >Classing assures ship owners, insurers, and regulators that vessels are designed, constructed and inspected to accepted standards. Classing may be effective at filtering out unsatisfactory designers and builders, but the established standards do little to weed out subpar vessel operators – because classing agencies only focus on validating the physical vessel. [...] > The vast majority of marine (and aviation) accidents are a result of operator error, not mechanical failure. Did they not consider that the reason for this fact is, oh I don't know, maybe because the vessels have passed the checks for mechanical integrity? You can't make this stuff up...

deanc 3y ago

Can someone walk me through what would have happened, physically, to a human body in the moment this happened. I’m curious. Similar to wondering what happens to people in space.

js2 3y ago
In outer space, you pass out in about 15 seconds from lack of O2 to the brain, then your heart stops and eventually you freeze. NASA has done the experiments: > Chimpanzees can withstand even longer exposures. In a pair of papers from NASA in 1965 and 1967, researchers found that chimpanzees could survive up to 3.5 minutes in near-vacuum conditions with no apparent cognitive defects, as measured by complex tasks months later. One chimp that was exposed for three minutes, however, showed lasting behavioral changes. Another died shortly after exposure, likely due to cardiac arrest. Then there was this oops: > In 1965 a technician inside a vacuum chamber at Johnson Space Center in Houston accidentally depressurized his space suit by disrupting a hose. After 12 to 15 seconds he lost consciousness. He regained it at 27 seconds, after his suit was repressurized to about half that of sea level. The man reported that his last memory before blacking out was of the moisture on his tongue beginning to boil as well as a loss of taste sensation that lingered for four days following the accident, but he was otherwise unharmed. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/survival-in-space-unprotected-possible/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/survival-in-space... Dying in a submarine would be very different. The pressure differential in space is a single atmosphere. Water increases by about one atmosphere every 33 feet. At Titanic's depth it's ~ 368 atmospheres of pressure. Reddit discussion from 3 years ago: https://old.reddit.com/r/submarines/comments/gy1wc6/what_exactly_does_happen_when_a_submarine_goes/ https://old.reddit.com/r/submarines/comments/gy1wc6/what_exa... > The collapse of a submarine pressure hull happens quick, just 37 milliseconds in the case of the Scorpion. The incoming water had a velocity of about 2,000 mph. [...] Over such small time scales, there is no time for the water or the steel hull to absorb any heat from the rapidly compressing air inside of the submarine. Because no heat is transferred from the air to the water or hull, the compression is adiabatic. [...] The collapse halted when the air pressure was approximately equal to the water pressure at 1,530 feet, which is 4,630,000 Pa. [...] 1,122°F. That was at 1,530 feet. Contact was lost with the Titan at 1 hour and 45 minutes into its dive. A typical dive to the bottom took it 3 hours. So it was likely at least halfway to the bottom (6000 feet). Its implosion would have involved even more spectacular forces. They were dead before they knew what happened, incinerated and pulverized. There are no bodies to recover. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Titan_submersible_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Titan_submersible_inciden... See "Why the USS SCORPION (SSN 589) Was Lost 50 years Ago" https://www.iusscaa.org/articles/brucerule/scorpion_loss_50years.pdf https://www.iusscaa.org/articles/brucerule/scorpion_loss_50y...