10 ms·

False equivalence. Killing something and trying to stop someone from killing something is not the same.

by swexbe 3y ago

Goronmon 3y ago
False equivalence. It's not false equivalence just because you don't like what the comparison says about your stance on an issue. Pro-life stances are mainly about virtue-signaling anyways.
- Freak_NL 3y ago
  > Pro-life stances are mainly about virtue-signaling anyways. Anti-abortion, anti-LGBTQ+ stuff, anti-vaxx, anti-CRT (US specific), pro-Putin; often these seem just shibboleths to signal group membership.
HelloMcFly 3y ago
Abortion is not killing, abortion is healthcare. Yes, I realize one's set of values will create disagreement on this, I'm not trying to build consensus here, but can't let such a statement about "killing" go uncommented on.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  Most abortions are not healthcare.
  - HelloMcFly 3y ago
    Categorically false
  - Timon3 3y ago
    All abortions are healthcare. Not every abortion is required to save the mothers life, but that doesn't mean it's not healthcare.
- timw4mail 3y ago
  Abortion as "birth control" is killing. That is not health care.
  - Goronmon 3y ago
    Abortion as "birth control" is killing. That is not health care. It's absolutely healthcare, as much as your virtue-signaling wants to pretend otherwise.
  - mrpopo 3y ago
    No one uses periodic abortions as birth control, except in US right-wing media horror stories.
- BillWyeRex 3y ago
  I'm generally pro-choice but this reckless disingenuity employed by abortion advocates is appalling. An abortion is not as routine as having a skin tag removed. It is a serious, life-changing decision that ought to come with an appropriate level of counselling, reflection, and consideration.
  - HelloMcFly 3y ago
    You're arguing against a straw man, like so many conservatives, who think people like me view abortion as skin tag removal. It is a major healthcare decision, it has major consequences, it's not trivial. Be appalled at thine own reckless interpretations.
  - Goronmon 3y ago
    I'm generally pro-choice but this reckless disingenuity employed by abortion advocates is appalling. What exactly do you find "reckless disingenuity" about referring to an abortion as healthcare? Nothing about that signals recklessness. Healthcare can refer to "skin tag removal" as you mentioned, it can also refer to cancer treatments, emergency surgery, etc.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    The comment you’ve replied to didn’t compare it to getting a skin tag removed, they called it healthcare. Healthcare covers all sort of procedures, with various levels of moral weight attached. Regardless, it is up to the patient how much counseling, reflection, and consideration they feel they need. If you get an abortion you ought to have the right to seek counseling before or after if you want, it is up to you.
- swexbe 3y ago
  It can be both, just like assisted suicide. Not sure how this has any effect on my argument. Advertising for an assisted suicide clinic, no matter your views on assisted suicide, is not the same as advertising for a sucide hotline. I think this is a fair comparison.
- GloomyBoots 3y ago
  A fetus is a human organism (this is the consensus among biologists, including pro-choice ones). Induced abortion is killing. You can make arguments as to why this is justified, but that doesn’t change that it is taking a life. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3211703 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3211703
  - HelloMcFly 3y ago
    This paper asks the wrong questions. Yes, a fertizilized egg is "alive" in the same way sperm is "alive". The paper essentially uses the question of when the development of a human begins to argue: 1. Anything living is wrong to kill. 2. Human embryos and early fetuses are living 3. Therefore, human embryos shouldn't be "killed" #1 is clearly wrong, #2 is a misdirect, #3 leads to the author's desired conclusion as a result. That paper based on the presumption that "opponents" argue that fetuses are not biologically living organisms. Fertilized eggs and embryos are living human organisms certainly, but it's not a person yet. Is an egg a chicken? Is a seed a tree? Is a caterpillar a butterfly? Is a collection of human cells with the potential to become a human, human? I believe "no" to all of the above. Potential for development into a more complex living organism is not the same as being that other organism.
Timon3 3y ago
You're trying to push your morality on everyone. It's fine if you consider abortion to be murder, but the majority doesn't. Google for anti-abortion stuff all you like! But don't make it show up on unrelated searches, if you don't also want the opposite to happen.
- swexbe 3y ago
  Please, I'm literally just saying it wasn't a good comparison.
  - Timon3 3y ago
    But it's only not a good comparison from your point of view. From mine (and that of many others) it's perfectly apt.
pron 3y ago
That anyone is killed in an abortion is a minority opinion. Some thing, however, is also killed every time you wash your hands.
- swexbe 3y ago
  Only if you disregard everyone outside USA/EU.
  - pron 3y ago
    And China and India and Muslim countries. An absolutist aversion to abortion is a rather uniquely Christian position and the issue is not so hot outside of majority Christian countries and can be largely considered a peculiarly Christian matter. The second most negative view is probably in Buddhism (which, at least according to Wikipedia, also believes the foetus to be some form of a living human). Other religions may frown upon abortion and forbid it in some situations, but they still don't consider the foetus to be a person.
    - swexbe 3y ago
      "Most Indians oppose legal abortion" (https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/03/02/son-preference-and-abortion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/03/02/son-preferen...) "Classical Hindu texts are strongly opposed to abortion: one text compares abortion to the killing of a priest another text considers abortion a worse sin than killing one's parents another text says that a woman who aborts her child will lose her caste" (https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/hinduethics/abortion_1.shtml https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/hinduethic...) Abortion is illegal in a majority of Muslim majority countries. The exceptions are usually post soviet states
      - GloomyBoots 3y ago
        There’s a funny, widespread phenomenon of people invoking cultural relativity and Christian particularism specifically on issues with the most cross-cultural consensus.

False equivalence. Killing something and trying to stop someone from killing something is not the same.

by swexbe 3y ago

False equivalence. Killing something and trying to stop someone from killing something is not the same.

False equivalence. It's not false equivalence just because you don't like what the comparison says about your stance on an issue. Pro-life stances are mainly about virtue-signaling anyways.

Freak_NL 3y ago
> Pro-life stances are mainly about virtue-signaling anyways. Anti-abortion, anti-LGBTQ+ stuff, anti-vaxx, anti-CRT (US specific), pro-Putin; often these seem just shibboleths to signal group membership.

HelloMcFly 3y ago

Abortion is not killing, abortion is healthcare. Yes, I realize one's set of values will create disagreement on this, I'm not trying to build consensus here, but can't let such a statement about "killing" go uncommented on.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago
Most abortions are not healthcare.
- HelloMcFly 3y ago
  Categorically false
- Timon3 3y ago
  All abortions are healthcare. Not every abortion is required to save the mothers life, but that doesn't mean it's not healthcare.
timw4mail 3y ago
Abortion as "birth control" is killing. That is not health care.
- Goronmon 3y ago
  Abortion as "birth control" is killing. That is not health care. It's absolutely healthcare, as much as your virtue-signaling wants to pretend otherwise.
- mrpopo 3y ago
  No one uses periodic abortions as birth control, except in US right-wing media horror stories.
BillWyeRex 3y ago
I'm generally pro-choice but this reckless disingenuity employed by abortion advocates is appalling. An abortion is not as routine as having a skin tag removed. It is a serious, life-changing decision that ought to come with an appropriate level of counselling, reflection, and consideration.
- HelloMcFly 3y ago
  You're arguing against a straw man, like so many conservatives, who think people like me view abortion as skin tag removal. It is a major healthcare decision, it has major consequences, it's not trivial. Be appalled at thine own reckless interpretations.
- Goronmon 3y ago
  I'm generally pro-choice but this reckless disingenuity employed by abortion advocates is appalling. What exactly do you find "reckless disingenuity" about referring to an abortion as healthcare? Nothing about that signals recklessness. Healthcare can refer to "skin tag removal" as you mentioned, it can also refer to cancer treatments, emergency surgery, etc.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  The comment you’ve replied to didn’t compare it to getting a skin tag removed, they called it healthcare. Healthcare covers all sort of procedures, with various levels of moral weight attached. Regardless, it is up to the patient how much counseling, reflection, and consideration they feel they need. If you get an abortion you ought to have the right to seek counseling before or after if you want, it is up to you.
swexbe 3y ago
It can be both, just like assisted suicide. Not sure how this has any effect on my argument. Advertising for an assisted suicide clinic, no matter your views on assisted suicide, is not the same as advertising for a sucide hotline. I think this is a fair comparison.
GloomyBoots 3y ago
A fetus is a human organism (this is the consensus among biologists, including pro-choice ones). Induced abortion is killing. You can make arguments as to why this is justified, but that doesn’t change that it is taking a life. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3211703 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3211703
- HelloMcFly 3y ago
  This paper asks the wrong questions. Yes, a fertizilized egg is "alive" in the same way sperm is "alive". The paper essentially uses the question of when the development of a human begins to argue: 1. Anything living is wrong to kill. 2. Human embryos and early fetuses are living 3. Therefore, human embryos shouldn't be "killed" #1 is clearly wrong, #2 is a misdirect, #3 leads to the author's desired conclusion as a result. That paper based on the presumption that "opponents" argue that fetuses are not biologically living organisms. Fertilized eggs and embryos are living human organisms certainly, but it's not a person yet. Is an egg a chicken? Is a seed a tree? Is a caterpillar a butterfly? Is a collection of human cells with the potential to become a human, human? I believe "no" to all of the above. Potential for development into a more complex living organism is not the same as being that other organism.

Timon3 3y ago

You're trying to push your morality on everyone. It's fine if you consider abortion to be murder, but the majority doesn't. Google for anti-abortion stuff all you like! But don't make it show up on unrelated searches, if you don't also want the opposite to happen.

swexbe 3y ago
Please, I'm literally just saying it wasn't a good comparison.
- Timon3 3y ago
  But it's only not a good comparison from your point of view. From mine (and that of many others) it's perfectly apt.

pron 3y ago

That anyone is killed in an abortion is a minority opinion. Some thing, however, is also killed every time you wash your hands.

swexbe 3y ago
Only if you disregard everyone outside USA/EU.
- pron 3y ago
  And China and India and Muslim countries. An absolutist aversion to abortion is a rather uniquely Christian position and the issue is not so hot outside of majority Christian countries and can be largely considered a peculiarly Christian matter. The second most negative view is probably in Buddhism (which, at least according to Wikipedia, also believes the foetus to be some form of a living human). Other religions may frown upon abortion and forbid it in some situations, but they still don't consider the foetus to be a person.
  - swexbe 3y ago
    "Most Indians oppose legal abortion" (https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/03/02/son-preference-and-abortion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/03/02/son-preferen...) "Classical Hindu texts are strongly opposed to abortion: one text compares abortion to the killing of a priest another text considers abortion a worse sin than killing one's parents another text says that a woman who aborts her child will lose her caste" (https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/hinduethics/abortion_1.shtml https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/hinduethic...) Abortion is illegal in a majority of Muslim majority countries. The exceptions are usually post soviet states
    - GloomyBoots 3y ago
      There’s a funny, widespread phenomenon of people invoking cultural relativity and Christian particularism specifically on issues with the most cross-cultural consensus.