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I'm not sold on the idea that "violations of this code outside these spaces" is a bad thing, it depends what those violations are. I'm completely happy and hav

I'm not sold on the idea that "violations of this code outside these spaces" is a bad thing, it depends what those violations are. I'm completely happy and have spent my career working with people who's views don't always align with my own. If I have a religious co-worker who believes I will spend eternity burning in hell for my sexuality, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. They have a right to their view, I have a right to my view, and discussion of those views should be left outside of the workplace. As long as this person treats me with respect, the fact they think I'll spend my non-existent afterlife in a non-existent hell has zero impact on my life. On the other hand, if they spend their free time advocating for things which will have an impact on my life, such as sending me to prison for my sexuality, that's a very different story. It would be impossible for me to work with someone in a constructive way knowing they're pushing for a world without me in it. If they're happy to throw me out of society and into prison, I'm happy to throw them out of my project.

Dalewyn 3y ago
>I'm not sold on the idea that "violations of this code outside these spaces" is a bad thing, Let's frame it in a more relatable context. Your employer can fire you for violating the company code of conduct, despite your behaviour having absolutely nothing to do with the company or its business.
- foldr 3y ago
  This is completely commonplace. Yes, you can be fired for doing something outside of work that would bring your employer into disrepute. If anything this used to be much more common before the era of codes of conduct, when people were, for example, routinely fired when it was discovered that they were gay.
  - ajsnigrutin 3y ago
    > If anything this used to be much more common before the era of codes of conduct, when people were, for example, routinely fired when it was discovered that they were gay. Do we really want to go back to those times?
    - foldr 3y ago
      Your comment is a bit cryptic, but I assume you're trying to make an equivalence between, say, someone being fired for being gay in the 1970s and someone now being fired for saying hateful things about trans people. These scenarios are only comparable at a level of abstraction that's not useful. It's only inconsistent to oppose one thing and not the other if you think that employers should be barred from firing people for anything that they say or do outside of work. I don't think there has ever been a society where this was the norm. Looking at the big picture, people nowadays have far more freedom in this respect than they ever did (e.g. women are not fired when they get married).
      - torstenvl 3y ago
        How many people are fired for saying hateful things about trans people? vs. How many people are fired for saying things that many trans people disagree with?
        foldr 3y ago
        There's a lot of overlap between those two categories, so I'd assume about the same number. But like many others in this thread you're choosing to make your point in a cryptic way. I'm sure you know that statistics on this aren't available, so what is the point that you really want to make here?
  - rhn_mk1 3y ago
    If you can be fired for doing something in private, then your work intrudes and takes over your personal life. If it happens, than it's a huge mistake on the part of the society, as it robs humans of their life outside of work, and turns them into half-slaves where their workplace has a say over their entire life. Instead of continuing this practice, we should work to stop it and restore the private sphere.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - foldr 3y ago
      >What part of having absolutely nothing to do with the company or its business do you not understand? We were presumably talking about cases where people might be fired or excluded from a project for e.g. making transphobic comments in public outside of a work context. If you agree that this isn't a case where the actions have 'nothing to do with the company or its business' (because of reputational issues), then it seems that we're in agreement. >If anything, it seems like nowadays people can be routinely fired when it's discovered that they are straight. Utter nonsense – and you know it.
      - Dalewyn 3y ago
        Say you're a car mechanic and you work at a car shop. The car shop fires you for saying the Moon is made of cheese during a BBQ at a friend's on Saturday, because it's against the nebulous code of conduct. Now let's say you're a programmer and you like volunteering code to GCC. The project bans you because your beliefs expressed anywhere, including in the privacy of your own home, violate the nebulous code of conduct. That's the kind of world we're slowly but surely moving towards.
        foldr 3y ago
        >Say you're a car mechanic and you work at a car shop. The car shop fires you for saying the Moon is made of cheese during a BBQ at a friend's on Saturday, because it's against the nebulous code of conduct. Or maybe we’re slowly but surely moving to a world where the rights of women and minority groups are being slowly eroded after decades of progress, and before long me and all the other gays will be rounded up and sent to conversion camps in Florida run by a newly-nationalised Disney corporation. I’m gonna guess you don’t find the line of argument in the preceding paragraph super convincing. I feel the same way about what you wrote.
        3y ago
  - zajio1am 3y ago
    > This is completely commonplace. Not in EU.
- josephcsible 3y ago
  > Your employer can fire you for violating the company code of conduct, despite your behaviour having absolutely nothing to do with the company or its business. In particular, if you're in favor of both this CoC and of labor unions, then your beliefs are inconsistent, since one of the things labor unions do is try to prevent their members from being fired without legitimate, work-related reasons.
Akronymus 3y ago
>..., it depends what those violations are. It decidedly does not. To quote Kovarex, a Factorio dev: “If Stalin had a good writeup on programming, would linking that be dangerous?” [1] I believe VERY strongly in separating the art from the artist. [1]https://old.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/o2ly6f/friday_facts_366_the_only_way_to_go_fast_is_to_go/h276k7b/ https://old.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/o2ly6f/friday_fac...
- Voultapher 3y ago
  You seem to be conflating reading an idea and working together. If Stalin had some good programming idea, that idea itself isn't tainted. I wouldn't mind using a library that incorporates that idea. However I would never want to work with him together on a project. A common theme in this discussion seems to be the delusion that working together on code is some pure abstract thing without any emotions or personality involved. Even something as basic as how to name stuff is deeply emotional. And there exists the whole surrounding aspect of communication and coordination. And in regards to the dangerous part, there is a very real danger in giving people a platform and potentially promoting them. If a known white suprematist draws beautiful pictures, I wouldn't want them at my art gallery. Their world views are so strongly incompatible with mine that I don't want to help them become more popular, even by proxy.
  - account42 3y ago
    > A common theme in this discussion seems to be the delusion that working together on code is some pure abstract thing without any emotions or personality involved. Yes, strive towards that. If you can't keep your emotions in check, seek help with that instead of taking it out on people you are emotional about. > And in regards to the dangerous part, there is a very real danger in giving people a platform and potentially promoting them. Deplatforming based on feelings and especially the normalization of that is a much much much bigger danger. Don't expect to always be on the good sides of those holding the power even if you are now. > Their world views are so strongly incompatible with mine that I don't want to help them become more popular, even by proxy. If their world views don't affect their contributions to the project then that's squarely a you problem.

Dalewyn 3y ago

>I'm not sold on the idea that "violations of this code outside these spaces" is a bad thing, Let's frame it in a more relatable context. Your employer can fire you for violating the company code of conduct, despite your behaviour having absolutely nothing to do with the company or its business.

foldr 3y ago
This is completely commonplace. Yes, you can be fired for doing something outside of work that would bring your employer into disrepute. If anything this used to be much more common before the era of codes of conduct, when people were, for example, routinely fired when it was discovered that they were gay.
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago
  > If anything this used to be much more common before the era of codes of conduct, when people were, for example, routinely fired when it was discovered that they were gay. Do we really want to go back to those times?
  - foldr 3y ago
    Your comment is a bit cryptic, but I assume you're trying to make an equivalence between, say, someone being fired for being gay in the 1970s and someone now being fired for saying hateful things about trans people. These scenarios are only comparable at a level of abstraction that's not useful. It's only inconsistent to oppose one thing and not the other if you think that employers should be barred from firing people for anything that they say or do outside of work. I don't think there has ever been a society where this was the norm. Looking at the big picture, people nowadays have far more freedom in this respect than they ever did (e.g. women are not fired when they get married).
    - torstenvl 3y ago
      How many people are fired for saying hateful things about trans people? vs. How many people are fired for saying things that many trans people disagree with?
      - foldr 3y ago
        There's a lot of overlap between those two categories, so I'd assume about the same number. But like many others in this thread you're choosing to make your point in a cryptic way. I'm sure you know that statistics on this aren't available, so what is the point that you really want to make here?
- rhn_mk1 3y ago
  If you can be fired for doing something in private, then your work intrudes and takes over your personal life. If it happens, than it's a huge mistake on the part of the society, as it robs humans of their life outside of work, and turns them into half-slaves where their workplace has a say over their entire life. Instead of continuing this practice, we should work to stop it and restore the private sphere.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - foldr 3y ago
    >What part of having absolutely nothing to do with the company or its business do you not understand? We were presumably talking about cases where people might be fired or excluded from a project for e.g. making transphobic comments in public outside of a work context. If you agree that this isn't a case where the actions have 'nothing to do with the company or its business' (because of reputational issues), then it seems that we're in agreement. >If anything, it seems like nowadays people can be routinely fired when it's discovered that they are straight. Utter nonsense – and you know it.
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      Say you're a car mechanic and you work at a car shop. The car shop fires you for saying the Moon is made of cheese during a BBQ at a friend's on Saturday, because it's against the nebulous code of conduct. Now let's say you're a programmer and you like volunteering code to GCC. The project bans you because your beliefs expressed anywhere, including in the privacy of your own home, violate the nebulous code of conduct. That's the kind of world we're slowly but surely moving towards.
      - foldr 3y ago
        >Say you're a car mechanic and you work at a car shop. The car shop fires you for saying the Moon is made of cheese during a BBQ at a friend's on Saturday, because it's against the nebulous code of conduct. Or maybe we’re slowly but surely moving to a world where the rights of women and minority groups are being slowly eroded after decades of progress, and before long me and all the other gays will be rounded up and sent to conversion camps in Florida run by a newly-nationalised Disney corporation. I’m gonna guess you don’t find the line of argument in the preceding paragraph super convincing. I feel the same way about what you wrote.
        3y ago
- zajio1am 3y ago
  > This is completely commonplace. Not in EU.
josephcsible 3y ago
> Your employer can fire you for violating the company code of conduct, despite your behaviour having absolutely nothing to do with the company or its business. In particular, if you're in favor of both this CoC and of labor unions, then your beliefs are inconsistent, since one of the things labor unions do is try to prevent their members from being fired without legitimate, work-related reasons.

Akronymus 3y ago

>..., it depends what those violations are. It decidedly does not. To quote Kovarex, a Factorio dev: “If Stalin had a good writeup on programming, would linking that be dangerous?” [1] I believe VERY strongly in separating the art from the artist. [1]https://old.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/o2ly6f/friday_facts_366_the_only_way_to_go_fast_is_to_go/h276k7b/ https://old.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/o2ly6f/friday_fac...

Voultapher 3y ago
You seem to be conflating reading an idea and working together. If Stalin had some good programming idea, that idea itself isn't tainted. I wouldn't mind using a library that incorporates that idea. However I would never want to work with him together on a project. A common theme in this discussion seems to be the delusion that working together on code is some pure abstract thing without any emotions or personality involved. Even something as basic as how to name stuff is deeply emotional. And there exists the whole surrounding aspect of communication and coordination. And in regards to the dangerous part, there is a very real danger in giving people a platform and potentially promoting them. If a known white suprematist draws beautiful pictures, I wouldn't want them at my art gallery. Their world views are so strongly incompatible with mine that I don't want to help them become more popular, even by proxy.
- account42 3y ago
  > A common theme in this discussion seems to be the delusion that working together on code is some pure abstract thing without any emotions or personality involved. Yes, strive towards that. If you can't keep your emotions in check, seek help with that instead of taking it out on people you are emotional about. > And in regards to the dangerous part, there is a very real danger in giving people a platform and potentially promoting them. Deplatforming based on feelings and especially the normalization of that is a much much much bigger danger. Don't expect to always be on the good sides of those holding the power even if you are now. > Their world views are so strongly incompatible with mine that I don't want to help them become more popular, even by proxy. If their world views don't affect their contributions to the project then that's squarely a you problem.