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> EU knows and complains about Poland & Hungary but France is going to be a shitshow of a far worse magnitude. I am French too and this sounds greatly exaggera

> EU knows and complains about Poland & Hungary but France is going to be a shitshow of a far worse magnitude. I am French too and this sounds greatly exaggerated. Either you don't really know about the situation in Hungary or you have a very twisted view of what's happening in France (maybe induced by the medias). You should take a step back.

InCityDreams 3y ago
Gp made points, how do you see them as twisted and exaggerated?
beremaki 3y ago
What I say is that IF France becomes an illiberal democracy, it is going to be far worse for EU than what happened in Hungary. Hungary and France are absolutely not on the same scale
- piokoch 3y ago
  Wait for the next election in Germany. AfD has just climbed to the 2nd place with 20% of support and is still growing. Believe or not, one day you will miss someone like Orban.
  - skitout 3y ago
    Germany power is less centralized, with more powerful counter-power than Hungary , reducing the risk of seeing an Orban like situation.
    - formerly_proven 3y ago
      Germany tends to have 1.34 liberal-ish governments followed by sixteen years of conservatives.
  - light_hue_1 3y ago
    The situation is a bit less dire than that thankfully. 2/3rds of AfD supporters claim to be doing it as a protest vote. And that they don't support the AfD. Just like with brexit. There's still time for an alternative before all of Europe goes in with fascism again.
    - Beldin 3y ago
      > There's still time for an alternative That is somewhat funny/punny, since that is (as you're probably aware) literally in AfD's name: Alternative for Germany (Deutschland).
      - light_hue_1 3y ago
        You would think that with that pun I wouldn't get downvoted. Ah well :)
    - AnonCoward42 3y ago
      > 2/3rds of AfD supporters claim to be doing it as a protest vote. And that they don't support the AfD. Just like with brexit. > There's still time for an alternative before all of Europe goes in with fascism again. AfD => fascism. Argumentum ad Hitlerum basically. Does Germany really need more migration? More identity kamikaze? More publicly financed propaganda (ARD, ZDF, DW, plenty "N"GOs)? More provocation towards Russia for no god damn reason? More climate hysteria (and the unevitable destruction of enviroment for it)? Which party would you choose instead? They all stand for the same thing with different velocity except ... yeah, exactly.
      - hnbad 3y ago
        The AfD may not be literally a fascist party, but it does have a prominent right-wing extremist faction that includes several of its most widely known members such as this man: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B6rn_H%C3%B6cke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B6rn_H%C3%B6cke I think arguing about the accuracy of labels like "nazi" or "fascist" is a bit beside the point. You and I both know the people calling the AfD fascist or nazi won't suddenly like it better if you can convince them they don't meet the exact definition of fascism or are identical to the historical National Socialist Democratic Workers Party. It's clearly more about a vibe, but that is also true for the AfD's own political ideology (and yours, apparently, if you think "identity kamikaze" is 1) a thing that is happening and 2) something to be seriously concerned about). Incidentally the NSDAP also had different factions including Strasserites, who imagined a more proletarian-led economy and people who thought having homosexuals like Röhm around was acceptable, at least for utilitarian purposes. Incidentally, most of those were murdered by the rest once the NSDAP actually got into power. Such is the reward for being progressive in the far-right.
  - nmlr 3y ago
    Protest votes. What would one expect if the Green party is suddenly a warmongering party and Scholz is silent about Nord Stream even after the Washington Post essentially blames Ukraine? Also, while I don't like the people in the AfD, they are still mostly the former right wing of the CDU/CSU, which is not comparable to Orban. CDU/CSU can blame itself for mismanagement.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      The Greens suddenly supported war? The first deployment of German armed forces since WW2 happened under a SPD/Green government, over 20 years ago.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Well, in the last election the greens were projected to get the most votes. Didn't happen. Not to say that the AfDs popularity isn't worrisome, it is, but votes are counted on election days.
  - xinayder 3y ago
    > Believe or not, one day you will miss someone like Orban. I think you're sugarcoating the statement. Any type of authoritarianism is bad, would you mind elaborating why AfD would be worse than what Orban or Duda or even Erdogan are doing to their countries?
    - tourmalinetaco 3y ago
      I can only assume because it’s not “their” kind of authority taking power.
  - account42 3y ago
    And of course the response from the other parties is to see if they can ban the AfD instead of realizing that this is their own doing by continously ignoring the interest of the voters who are then easily swayed by a populist party (or just voting AfD because none of the other options are good either).
Trencin 3y ago
"Either you don't really know about the situation in France or you have a very twisted view of what's happening in Hungary /Poland (maybe induced by the medias). You should take a step back"
jle17 3y ago
There is definitely a tendency to authoritarianism and confusionism from the current government, directed at political opposition. "Security" laws extending the powers of the police and creating new ways to criminalize protest have been passed at a constant rhythm over the years since Sarkozy's time. After the state of urgency of 2015, part of the dispositions where simply put into law permanently. Police has been increasingly violent during protests, bringing back old forbidden tactics and squads formerly dissolved for their violence (voltigeurs). While there has been no dissolution of leftist movement and no political violence from the left since "action directe" in the 80's, there have been multiple ones (or attempts) in recent times, like the one from yesterday of an ecological movement. Anti-terrorist laws are used to detain ecologists or protesters indefinitely, like in the case of the "8th november" affair from this topic, which has seen a person kept in solitary (hence, tortured) for 16 months without even being convicted.
- qsdf38100 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - HourglassFR 3y ago
    > You are attacking the wrong target. You are missing the big picture. This is rich comming from someone putting Melenchon, basically an old school socialist (in the werstern Europe sense), in the same bag as Le Pen and Zemmour who are as far-right as it gets in Europe. I agree that the situation is not very readable, but at least let's try to have a point of view consistent with the political history of the last few decades.
    - qsdf38100 3y ago
      Yet there are lot of striking similarities. Lying, distorting reality to the absurd, openly supporting dictators, smoke-screen tactics, obstruction, inversion of reality, accusing others of things they are guilty. "Macron is a wanabee dictator!!". In February 2022, Zemour, MLP and Mélenchon were all supporting Putin, his stance against the "evil US", saying that Putin would never invade Ukraine, that it was all US propaganda being spoon-fed to Europe. Then the invasion happened. Then they blamed the invasion on US, of course, and questioned the reports of war crimes, and justified Russia invasion by saying it was defending against "NATO aggression". But then, when Russia started to loose, they became "pacifists", saying NATO was prolonging the war by helping Ukraine... If they were Russian assets, they wouldn't behave much differently, would they? Same smell on both sides of the political spectrum. Who would have thought? Crazy, right? Like, imagine if far-right Hitler made a secret pact with the communist Soviet Union. Sounds familiar?
light_hue_1 3y ago
[flagged]
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - ethbr0 3y ago
    > Any concentration of power is bad Multiple failed, weak democracies that were subsequently replaced by dictatorships, several in France, would beg to differ. It's a balance between centralization (stability) and decentralization (individualism). Too much of either is corrosive.
  - gwd 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - indymike 3y ago
      > At best we'd've had a civil war. The best part of that January was that a coup and/or civil war did not happen. The US got on with business. It could have went bad, but it did not do so.
      - Arainach 3y ago
        A coup doesn't have to be successful to be a coup.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
        > The best part ... was that a coup ... did not happen Strong disagree: a half-assed, incompetently executed, failed bank robbery is still classed as and prosecuted as "bank robbery", there is no separate legal category for "attempted bank robbery". It's the same with a failed coup. "the coup failed pathetically" is categorically different from "a coup did not happen".
- lucasRW 3y ago

InCityDreams 3y ago

Gp made points, how do you see them as twisted and exaggerated?

beremaki 3y ago

What I say is that IF France becomes an illiberal democracy, it is going to be far worse for EU than what happened in Hungary. Hungary and France are absolutely not on the same scale

piokoch 3y ago
Wait for the next election in Germany. AfD has just climbed to the 2nd place with 20% of support and is still growing. Believe or not, one day you will miss someone like Orban.
- skitout 3y ago
  Germany power is less centralized, with more powerful counter-power than Hungary , reducing the risk of seeing an Orban like situation.
  - formerly_proven 3y ago
    Germany tends to have 1.34 liberal-ish governments followed by sixteen years of conservatives.
- light_hue_1 3y ago
  The situation is a bit less dire than that thankfully. 2/3rds of AfD supporters claim to be doing it as a protest vote. And that they don't support the AfD. Just like with brexit. There's still time for an alternative before all of Europe goes in with fascism again.
  - Beldin 3y ago
    > There's still time for an alternative That is somewhat funny/punny, since that is (as you're probably aware) literally in AfD's name: Alternative for Germany (Deutschland).
    - light_hue_1 3y ago
      You would think that with that pun I wouldn't get downvoted. Ah well :)
  - AnonCoward42 3y ago
    > 2/3rds of AfD supporters claim to be doing it as a protest vote. And that they don't support the AfD. Just like with brexit. > There's still time for an alternative before all of Europe goes in with fascism again. AfD => fascism. Argumentum ad Hitlerum basically. Does Germany really need more migration? More identity kamikaze? More publicly financed propaganda (ARD, ZDF, DW, plenty "N"GOs)? More provocation towards Russia for no god damn reason? More climate hysteria (and the unevitable destruction of enviroment for it)? Which party would you choose instead? They all stand for the same thing with different velocity except ... yeah, exactly.
    - hnbad 3y ago
      The AfD may not be literally a fascist party, but it does have a prominent right-wing extremist faction that includes several of its most widely known members such as this man: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B6rn_H%C3%B6cke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B6rn_H%C3%B6cke I think arguing about the accuracy of labels like "nazi" or "fascist" is a bit beside the point. You and I both know the people calling the AfD fascist or nazi won't suddenly like it better if you can convince them they don't meet the exact definition of fascism or are identical to the historical National Socialist Democratic Workers Party. It's clearly more about a vibe, but that is also true for the AfD's own political ideology (and yours, apparently, if you think "identity kamikaze" is 1) a thing that is happening and 2) something to be seriously concerned about). Incidentally the NSDAP also had different factions including Strasserites, who imagined a more proletarian-led economy and people who thought having homosexuals like Röhm around was acceptable, at least for utilitarian purposes. Incidentally, most of those were murdered by the rest once the NSDAP actually got into power. Such is the reward for being progressive in the far-right.
- nmlr 3y ago
  Protest votes. What would one expect if the Green party is suddenly a warmongering party and Scholz is silent about Nord Stream even after the Washington Post essentially blames Ukraine? Also, while I don't like the people in the AfD, they are still mostly the former right wing of the CDU/CSU, which is not comparable to Orban. CDU/CSU can blame itself for mismanagement.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    The Greens suddenly supported war? The first deployment of German armed forces since WW2 happened under a SPD/Green government, over 20 years ago.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Well, in the last election the greens were projected to get the most votes. Didn't happen. Not to say that the AfDs popularity isn't worrisome, it is, but votes are counted on election days.
- xinayder 3y ago
  > Believe or not, one day you will miss someone like Orban. I think you're sugarcoating the statement. Any type of authoritarianism is bad, would you mind elaborating why AfD would be worse than what Orban or Duda or even Erdogan are doing to their countries?
  - tourmalinetaco 3y ago
    I can only assume because it’s not “their” kind of authority taking power.
- account42 3y ago
  And of course the response from the other parties is to see if they can ban the AfD instead of realizing that this is their own doing by continously ignoring the interest of the voters who are then easily swayed by a populist party (or just voting AfD because none of the other options are good either).

Trencin 3y ago

"Either you don't really know about the situation in France or you have a very twisted view of what's happening in Hungary /Poland (maybe induced by the medias). You should take a step back"

jle17 3y ago

There is definitely a tendency to authoritarianism and confusionism from the current government, directed at political opposition. "Security" laws extending the powers of the police and creating new ways to criminalize protest have been passed at a constant rhythm over the years since Sarkozy's time. After the state of urgency of 2015, part of the dispositions where simply put into law permanently. Police has been increasingly violent during protests, bringing back old forbidden tactics and squads formerly dissolved for their violence (voltigeurs). While there has been no dissolution of leftist movement and no political violence from the left since "action directe" in the 80's, there have been multiple ones (or attempts) in recent times, like the one from yesterday of an ecological movement. Anti-terrorist laws are used to detain ecologists or protesters indefinitely, like in the case of the "8th november" affair from this topic, which has seen a person kept in solitary (hence, tortured) for 16 months without even being convicted.

qsdf38100 3y ago
[flagged]
- HourglassFR 3y ago
  > You are attacking the wrong target. You are missing the big picture. This is rich comming from someone putting Melenchon, basically an old school socialist (in the werstern Europe sense), in the same bag as Le Pen and Zemmour who are as far-right as it gets in Europe. I agree that the situation is not very readable, but at least let's try to have a point of view consistent with the political history of the last few decades.
  - qsdf38100 3y ago
    Yet there are lot of striking similarities. Lying, distorting reality to the absurd, openly supporting dictators, smoke-screen tactics, obstruction, inversion of reality, accusing others of things they are guilty. "Macron is a wanabee dictator!!". In February 2022, Zemour, MLP and Mélenchon were all supporting Putin, his stance against the "evil US", saying that Putin would never invade Ukraine, that it was all US propaganda being spoon-fed to Europe. Then the invasion happened. Then they blamed the invasion on US, of course, and questioned the reports of war crimes, and justified Russia invasion by saying it was defending against "NATO aggression". But then, when Russia started to loose, they became "pacifists", saying NATO was prolonging the war by helping Ukraine... If they were Russian assets, they wouldn't behave much differently, would they? Same smell on both sides of the political spectrum. Who would have thought? Crazy, right? Like, imagine if far-right Hitler made a secret pact with the communist Soviet Union. Sounds familiar?

light_hue_1 3y ago

[flagged]

phpisthebest 3y ago
[flagged]
- ethbr0 3y ago
  > Any concentration of power is bad Multiple failed, weak democracies that were subsequently replaced by dictatorships, several in France, would beg to differ. It's a balance between centralization (stability) and decentralization (individualism). Too much of either is corrosive.
- gwd 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - indymike 3y ago
    > At best we'd've had a civil war. The best part of that January was that a coup and/or civil war did not happen. The US got on with business. It could have went bad, but it did not do so.
    - Arainach 3y ago
      A coup doesn't have to be successful to be a coup.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
      > The best part ... was that a coup ... did not happen Strong disagree: a half-assed, incompetently executed, failed bank robbery is still classed as and prosecuted as "bank robbery", there is no separate legal category for "attempted bank robbery". It's the same with a failed coup. "the coup failed pathetically" is categorically different from "a coup did not happen".
lucasRW 3y ago