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Situation in France will not end well. Both rule of law and liberal democracy are increasingly damaged. Our institutions are so weak that we are one election a

Situation in France will not end well. Both rule of law and liberal democracy are increasingly damaged. Our institutions are so weak that we are one election away from a complete disaster. Our constitution always concentrated a lot of power in the hand of the president but there is no effective counter-power left. The government set multiple precedent that violate freedom of assembly and association and parliamentary rights. I skipped a lot of authoritarian practice that happened and are still happening but the situation is egregiously bad I don't say that because I am a political opponent. I voted for this government in 2017, I am a founder, I am pro business. But also I am a father of two and I would rather raise my children in a democracy. I am seriously pessimistic about this situation. EU knows and complains about Poland & Hungary but France is going to be a shitshow of a far worse magnitude. We should NOT get a pass because Macron knows how to play the game

FreelanceX 3y ago
> EU knows and complains about Poland & Hungary but France is going to be a shitshow of a far worse magnitude. I am French too and this sounds greatly exaggerated. Either you don't really know about the situation in Hungary or you have a very twisted view of what's happening in France (maybe induced by the medias). You should take a step back.
- InCityDreams 3y ago
  Gp made points, how do you see them as twisted and exaggerated?
- beremaki 3y ago
  What I say is that IF France becomes an illiberal democracy, it is going to be far worse for EU than what happened in Hungary. Hungary and France are absolutely not on the same scale
  - piokoch 3y ago
    Wait for the next election in Germany. AfD has just climbed to the 2nd place with 20% of support and is still growing. Believe or not, one day you will miss someone like Orban.
    - skitout 3y ago
      Germany power is less centralized, with more powerful counter-power than Hungary , reducing the risk of seeing an Orban like situation.
      - formerly_proven 3y ago
        Germany tends to have 1.34 liberal-ish governments followed by sixteen years of conservatives.
    - light_hue_1 3y ago
      The situation is a bit less dire than that thankfully. 2/3rds of AfD supporters claim to be doing it as a protest vote. And that they don't support the AfD. Just like with brexit. There's still time for an alternative before all of Europe goes in with fascism again.
      - Beldin 3y ago
        > There's still time for an alternative That is somewhat funny/punny, since that is (as you're probably aware) literally in AfD's name: Alternative for Germany (Deutschland).
        light_hue_1 3y ago
        You would think that with that pun I wouldn't get downvoted. Ah well :)
      - AnonCoward42 3y ago
        > 2/3rds of AfD supporters claim to be doing it as a protest vote. And that they don't support the AfD. Just like with brexit. > There's still time for an alternative before all of Europe goes in with fascism again. AfD => fascism. Argumentum ad Hitlerum basically. Does Germany really need more migration? More identity kamikaze? More publicly financed propaganda (ARD, ZDF, DW, plenty "N"GOs)? More provocation towards Russia for no god damn reason? More climate hysteria (and the unevitable destruction of enviroment for it)? Which party would you choose instead? They all stand for the same thing with different velocity except ... yeah, exactly.
- Trencin 3y ago
  "Either you don't really know about the situation in France or you have a very twisted view of what's happening in Hungary /Poland (maybe induced by the medias). You should take a step back"
- jle17 3y ago
  There is definitely a tendency to authoritarianism and confusionism from the current government, directed at political opposition. "Security" laws extending the powers of the police and creating new ways to criminalize protest have been passed at a constant rhythm over the years since Sarkozy's time. After the state of urgency of 2015, part of the dispositions where simply put into law permanently. Police has been increasingly violent during protests, bringing back old forbidden tactics and squads formerly dissolved for their violence (voltigeurs). While there has been no dissolution of leftist movement and no political violence from the left since "action directe" in the 80's, there have been multiple ones (or attempts) in recent times, like the one from yesterday of an ecological movement. Anti-terrorist laws are used to detain ecologists or protesters indefinitely, like in the case of the "8th november" affair from this topic, which has seen a person kept in solitary (hence, tortured) for 16 months without even being convicted.
  - qsdf38100 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - HourglassFR 3y ago
      > You are attacking the wrong target. You are missing the big picture. This is rich comming from someone putting Melenchon, basically an old school socialist (in the werstern Europe sense), in the same bag as Le Pen and Zemmour who are as far-right as it gets in Europe. I agree that the situation is not very readable, but at least let's try to have a point of view consistent with the political history of the last few decades.
      - qsdf38100 3y ago
        Yet there are lot of striking similarities. Lying, distorting reality to the absurd, openly supporting dictators, smoke-screen tactics, obstruction, inversion of reality, accusing others of things they are guilty. "Macron is a wanabee dictator!!". In February 2022, Zemour, MLP and Mélenchon were all supporting Putin, his stance against the "evil US", saying that Putin would never invade Ukraine, that it was all US propaganda being spoon-fed to Europe. Then the invasion happened. Then they blamed the invasion on US, of course, and questioned the reports of war crimes, and justified Russia invasion by saying it was defending against "NATO aggression". But then, when Russia started to loose, they became "pacifists", saying NATO was prolonging the war by helping Ukraine... If they were Russian assets, they wouldn't behave much differently, would they? Same smell on both sides of the political spectrum. Who would have thought? Crazy, right? Like, imagine if far-right Hitler made a secret pact with the communist Soviet Union. Sounds familiar?
- light_hue_1 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - ethbr0 3y ago
      > Any concentration of power is bad Multiple failed, weak democracies that were subsequently replaced by dictatorships, several in France, would beg to differ. It's a balance between centralization (stability) and decentralization (individualism). Too much of either is corrosive.
    - gwd 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - indymike 3y ago
        > At best we'd've had a civil war. The best part of that January was that a coup and/or civil war did not happen. The US got on with business. It could have went bad, but it did not do so.
        Arainach 3y ago
        A coup doesn't have to be successful to be a coup.
        SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
        > The best part ... was that a coup ... did not happen Strong disagree: a half-assed, incompetently executed, failed bank robbery is still classed as and prosecuted as "bank robbery", there is no separate legal category for "attempted bank robbery". It's the same with a failed coup. "the coup failed pathetically" is categorically different from "a coup did not happen".
  - lucasRW 3y ago
pif 3y ago
I live in France as well, and personally do not feel the same negativity as you. What I don't appreciate at all is our share of idiots that think that blocking the country is a proper way of protesting (see "gilets jaunes"). That is not democratic, when a minority imposes their will to the silent majority.
- Qiu_Zhanxuan 3y ago
  I'm always appalled by comments like these that justify their sympathy for authoritarian practices simply because they align with their interests. I'm in Paris, France, and police brutality has been increasing hand in hand with the corrupt nature of our government over the last decade, and it's horrifying. The apple is completely rotten; the way our election system works and all the dirty tricks you can do when you're in power mean people are not left with any other choice but to revolt. This does not bode well for our country.
  - pif 3y ago
    > sympathy for authoritarian practices simply because they align with their interests Nothing personal, I'm talking about the interests of all the voters who freely elected the current president and parliament. If you are not happy, it's our duty as a society to provide you a way to express your point. But the right to express your point does not involve the violence to get our attention. Most people just want to go on with their daily life, and putting obstacles to them will not gather any sympathy around you.
- beremaki 3y ago
  What gilets jaunes or blocking whatever have anything to do with violating parliamentary rights ? Or making protests of disappointment (edit: disapproval) illegal everywhere the president go ? What can anyone do about a president that abuses its power ? This is a basic democratic issue and I am pessimistic because a lot of people like you just don't seem to get it, so we won't address that and when it is going to be too late it will be too late. You might like or trust the current government but what about the next one ?
paganel 3y ago
First they came for the Gilets Jaunes... I know that that particular reply of mine doesn't help your particular case, but it was sickening to see how much of the supposed French people's liberties and citizens rights were broken back then and how most of the French intelligentsia was just cheering the government from the side.
- pif 3y ago
  > First they came for the Gilets Jaunes... Actually, they came too late for the Gilets Jaunes! > it was sickening to see how much of the supposed French people's liberties and citizens rights were broken back then I agree with you, a bunch of idiots holding a whole country hostage was not at all what one would expect in a sane democracy.
  - paganel 3y ago
    That's the spirit of "he has promised us that he'll let us enjoy our assignats in peace and bring order to the country by ending the revolution", i.e. the spirit that helped Napoleon got hold of power. I think trying to end the revolution is still an ongoing thing in today's France, for better or for worse.
    - pif 3y ago
      > trying to end the revolution is still an ongoing thing in I don't agree. France is as wonderful as it is because revolution was successfully completed long ago.
  - James_bread 3y ago
    Pif, your messages here align mostly with authoritarianism and fascism. You don't seem to care about people their freedom, their rights or real democracy. It's not a minority that holds the country hostage it's a minority who have the balls to standup against a small elite who have all power. Having to pick out of two evils has nothing to do with democracy.
    - 3y ago
Nemrod67 3y ago
As you can see from other replies: - the French people did not care that they had to sign a paper to get out to walk - that we closed libraries and forbade people from buying clothes in supermarkets - that Macron has been in charge of the country's finances for over a decade with horrid results (+600B€ in debt) - that Macron did everything he said he would not, and said a lot of things that would be treason in a reasonable civilization We are the rooster that sings with it's feet deep in shite. It's gonna get ugly when it hits the fan.
- napo 3y ago
  "the French people did not care that they had to sign a paper to get out to walk" 1- Don't you think this is quite political? Like what is your benefit from saying this out of context? If signing this paper and being stricter helped the hospitals not being saturated and saved x thousands lives do you still think it was a bad thing? (I'm not even saying that's the case I'm just saying you don't seem to take that possibility into account at all) 2- From my observations French people -constently- complain about this. So I wouldn't say they didn't care about it. You're doing it right now.
  - 0xParlay 3y ago
    >> If signing this paper and being stricter helped the hospitals not being saturated and saved x thousands lives do you still think it was a bad thing? If banning encryption and helping police stop terrorism saved x thousand lives do you blah blah blah blah Do programmers hang out here? The aversion to reasoning from first principle is palpable.
  - golergka 3y ago
    > If signing this paper and being stricter helped the hospitals not being saturated and saved x thousands lives do you still think it was a bad thing? If patriot act helped US intelligence agencies prevent the next 9/11, do you still think it was a bad thing?
  - tourmalinetaco 3y ago
    > Don't you think this is quite political? We’re discussing politics. > Like what is your benefit from saying this out of context? What does that even mean? Are you insinuating they’re being paid to say that? How do we know you’re not paid to counter them? > If signing this paper and being stricter helped the hospitals not being saturated and saved x thousands lives do you still think it was a bad thing? The problem is you and no one else could prove now or then that giving up my human rights would save lives. Because its all pointless lip service to take power away from the people under the guise of “protection”. Just like with encryption, personal weapons, and everything else that governments don’t want us to have. > I'm just saying you don't seem to take that possibility into account at all And I’m saying you haven’t taken into account that you’re an Authoritarian apologist.
throwaway290 3y ago
I am not French but my opinion of the current government is at rock bottom after how Macron recently went to China to basically suck up to Xi Jinping, completely ignoring human rights violations and all. And for what?
- jle17 3y ago
  Oh it's not just Xi. He likes dictators and human rights abusers, even those that no one will touch with a ten foot pole. Most recently, he received Mohammed bin Salman at the Élysée.
- tut-urut-utut 3y ago
  You criticise Macron for visiting a „dictator“ but not for being dictator himself? Macrons pushing of retirement law change against both public and parliament is definitely not democratic.
  - ikt 3y ago
    I think maybe because the rest of the world sees those changes he pushed through as incredibly mild he increased the pension age because people are getting older and the state will not be able to afford it? wow what a crazy dictator
    - derelicta 3y ago
      He used emergency powers to pass the law because he knew such law would hardly survive the regular legisative process. It might not be a Putin-style dictatorships but its definitively heading in the wrong direction. And thats without mentionning the use of abuse of administration prohibitions towards anti-racist associations and environmental groups.
      - martin8412 3y ago
        How would it ever pass normal legislative process? If I tell you that you have spend two more years working and there's no benefit for you at all, would you vote for it?
tokai 3y ago
This sounds like the normal mode for french politics. How many times has your government collapsed over the last 200 years? You're on the 5th republic or something right?
- barrysteve 3y ago
  Yep and compared to European history this is tame.
- gorjusborg 3y ago
  Better to have governments collapse than allow society to collapse. I can't claim to be an expert in French politics, but harmful government should not be allowed to be stable.
- ohgodplsno 3y ago
  To be fair, a bunch of these happened because of wars, we didn't really control these ones. The other bunch happened because they were precariously unstable governments.
nunja 3y ago
Frenchman, pro business too. Completely share your analysis. This is slowly turning into a shit démocrature.
- flashfaffe2 3y ago
  Short debate on the same topic on french TV: https://youtu.be/5Sf6hdnSqS4 https://youtu.be/5Sf6hdnSqS4
Draiken 3y ago
I'm from Brazil and I'd say we've just had that disaster election you fear a few years ago. I used to laugh at the absurdities of the Trump government thinking it would never happen here and alas, it did. And it was even worse than most could have ever imagined. Don't get me wrong, I didn't like the previous government and already dislike the current one's direction, but when you take one person that truly doesn't give a f**, they can ruin a country in ways you didn't even know existed. But I don't really see a way out though. Most politicians here (probably everywhere if we're honest) are corrupt so you always choose between the lesser of many evils. The obvious solution is to actually use our collective power to rebel and really enact change - something ironically we say the French are good at - but it simply never happens. Looking at the French protests against the rise of retirement age gave me hope. But then you look at the outcome and it's always the same: we lose. I honestly think the system has won. Capitalism successfully made everyone (myself included) just comfortable enough to not really take action. We are the proverbial frogs in boiling water and slowly but surely normalizing this insane world we live in today giving away all our hard-fought rights to our capitalist overlords. We get upset and yell at the void, Twitter, HN, blog posts and don't actually DO anything. I truly hate myself for that. Meanwhile those that actually do something, have their efforts stifled away by governments with ease. Perhaps I am a bit too pessimistic about this, but from where I stand, there's no way out.
- denton-scratch 3y ago
  > but from where I stand, there's no way out. I know how you feel! I'm from the UK. Corbyn's Labour seemed to me to be a glimmer of hope; but he was pushed out by the MSM and a cabal of his own party's rightist officials, and replaced by a man who immediately on getting the leadership, repudiated all his manifesto promises. So I no longer have anyone to vote for, and I favour revolution.
ajsnigrutin 3y ago
France kinda has a history of things going bad, their rulers overreaching, and people then taking matters into their own heads,... I somehow hope this time it can end less violently, but with how much (a lot of french) people hate macron, you never know... The larger problem is, that it is spreading to other countries and EU itself (just think of how many times EU tried to stop/backdoor/outlaw encryption). Add a new upcoming crisis, recession in germany and the long-term problems brought with eu expansion, and things are about to get even worse.
qsdf38100 3y ago
Come on, this is so exaggerated. If you care about democracy, you have much more relevant menace in France. People are screaming about Macron for some reason. Because they were told he is a DiCtAtOr!! Because he didn’t fold to unions. Apparently unions are to be obeyed otherwise you are a dictator? While obeying to elected government is dictatorship? It’s a nice inversion. The true authoritarian menace in France comes from the far right and far left. Melenchon is in love with authoritarian leaders (see bolivarian alliance), he can’t help screaming at people that disagree with him. His political career should have been ended by just a few of his outbursts. But he gets a pass for some reason. And don’t get me started on the far right, screaming that we are in a dictatorship while admiring Putin… Of course you can criticize Macron, he’s far from perfect, but if you care about democracy, focusing on him being THE issue is outright ridiculous. We have far more serious threats. You are completely missing the big picture. And people being told to fight Macron instead of the extremes is a serious threat. I can’t believe I have to explain that.
- skitout 3y ago
  Well, democracy is not 0 or 1, there are shades... So for sure Macron is not a dictator, but French democracy "grade" was not super high and it did went down. French 5th republic is sometimes nicknamed "presidential monarchy"... Electing the parliament quite at the same time as the president did reinforced the power of the president. The rise of the far right basically made that the one in the best position against far right at the first round of presidential election (with less than 20% of French people voting for him) be sure of being a Presidential Monarch for 5 years. (Notes that the leftist like Melanchon support a new constitution with more democracy, more counter power, less power for the president...) Note also that in France people working do democratically vote for unions (even if you are not unionized), and quite 100% of those votes went to union that are strongly against las Pension Law. According to polls more than 90% of the workers were against this law. And Macron could not pass this law in the elected parliament, and had to twist the constitution to pass it... This can be seen as problematic for many. When it come to protest, a lot of NGO and international bodies criticized the way France handle it. Many people are afraid to prostest in France now. Even the journalist of the righ wing newspaper le Figaro protest several time against police brutality against journalist in protest. NOte that France is the only country in EUrope to use many kind of weapon against protestors, weapon that can kill . When it comes to journalists. Aside of being target by police during the protest, we've seen also a growing Judicial pressure against them. And now the government is talking about law where they could be spied... "Because" of terrorism we've seen different law reducing the privacy of people... and many exceptional law that are hijacked to target people who are political opponent but not terrorist (like a police raid without judge OK against peaceful ecologists, or using antiterrorist law to forbid some peacefull protest) Even the normal law are "twisted" is a problematic way. Like arresting random protesters and keeping them for the night. Or arresting the leader of a group for a fake reason and then searshing his phone flat computer for intel... FOr sure France is not a dictature, but things are not good and are not going in a good way
kome 3y ago
very very well said
WastingMyTime89 3y ago
Classic French answer confusing the fairly good situation in the country for a disaster. France has been for the past sixty years and remains an extremely technocratic country. Counter-powers are still everywhere in the administration. The judiciary system is fully independent and works well. The balance between the parliament and the executive is extremely in favour of the president (which is still elected every five years during free elections) but counter-powers exist. They can’t be used by the opposition because despite spending all their time crying wolf and explaining this is the end of the world, they remain a minority and have nothing to propose anyway. The issue in France remains the same it has always been. The population is old, largely apathetic and would much rather be on the dole than produce anything of value. Meanwhile the unions are extremely unrepresentative of the population as a whole and remain stuck in the Trotskyist heydays of the past.
- Guthur 3y ago
  Oh yeah everyone must work harder, for some reason we have more technology than ever before and more people than ever before, but we all must work harder. There's enough food and energy if we so choose but no; artificial crisis from coughs to barbarian hordes on the horizon mean you must be poorer and work harder. We could all just actually wake up and realise they are lying they are always lying. They dare not tell the truth for you'd realise how much they lie when truth would shine so bright.
  - WastingMyTime89 3y ago
    You are confused. The issue is not about working harder. The issue is with producing value. I have yet to met a protester who can explain to me how burning cars and picketing is going to magically move down the median age of the population which is slowly but surely drifting towards 50. Considering most French also don’t want to rely on immigration (not that the country is attractive anyway), I guess they are either planning to force people to make kids at gunpoint or are strongly in denial. Don’t hesitate to explain who is this mysterious "they" who are apparently responsible of everything wrong in the country.
mytailorisrich 3y ago
I think we should not go over the top. The case reported in this article started when French people who went to fight in Syria among Kurdish militants came back to France and were put under surveillance. Even if the prosecution is using unconvincing evidence, which I don't know, this is hardly a sign of impending doom.
raxxorraxor 3y ago
I think the situation in France is quite similar to other EU countries, even the formerly holy nordic ones. > [...] l’utilisation de messageries chiffrées grand public, sont instrumentalisées comme autant de « preuves » d’une soi-disant « clandestinité » qui ne peut s’expliquer que par l’existence d’un projet terroriste. Sure, using encryption must mean I have terroistic ambitions... they say public officials lack creativity, but... but at least the government got convicted for their attempts at prosecution. Means the justice system is still functioning.

FreelanceX 3y ago

> EU knows and complains about Poland & Hungary but France is going to be a shitshow of a far worse magnitude. I am French too and this sounds greatly exaggerated. Either you don't really know about the situation in Hungary or you have a very twisted view of what's happening in France (maybe induced by the medias). You should take a step back.

InCityDreams 3y ago
Gp made points, how do you see them as twisted and exaggerated?
beremaki 3y ago
What I say is that IF France becomes an illiberal democracy, it is going to be far worse for EU than what happened in Hungary. Hungary and France are absolutely not on the same scale
- piokoch 3y ago
  Wait for the next election in Germany. AfD has just climbed to the 2nd place with 20% of support and is still growing. Believe or not, one day you will miss someone like Orban.
  - skitout 3y ago
    Germany power is less centralized, with more powerful counter-power than Hungary , reducing the risk of seeing an Orban like situation.
    - formerly_proven 3y ago
      Germany tends to have 1.34 liberal-ish governments followed by sixteen years of conservatives.
  - light_hue_1 3y ago
    The situation is a bit less dire than that thankfully. 2/3rds of AfD supporters claim to be doing it as a protest vote. And that they don't support the AfD. Just like with brexit. There's still time for an alternative before all of Europe goes in with fascism again.
    - Beldin 3y ago
      > There's still time for an alternative That is somewhat funny/punny, since that is (as you're probably aware) literally in AfD's name: Alternative for Germany (Deutschland).
      - light_hue_1 3y ago
        You would think that with that pun I wouldn't get downvoted. Ah well :)
    - AnonCoward42 3y ago
      > 2/3rds of AfD supporters claim to be doing it as a protest vote. And that they don't support the AfD. Just like with brexit. > There's still time for an alternative before all of Europe goes in with fascism again. AfD => fascism. Argumentum ad Hitlerum basically. Does Germany really need more migration? More identity kamikaze? More publicly financed propaganda (ARD, ZDF, DW, plenty "N"GOs)? More provocation towards Russia for no god damn reason? More climate hysteria (and the unevitable destruction of enviroment for it)? Which party would you choose instead? They all stand for the same thing with different velocity except ... yeah, exactly.
Trencin 3y ago
"Either you don't really know about the situation in France or you have a very twisted view of what's happening in Hungary /Poland (maybe induced by the medias). You should take a step back"
jle17 3y ago
There is definitely a tendency to authoritarianism and confusionism from the current government, directed at political opposition. "Security" laws extending the powers of the police and creating new ways to criminalize protest have been passed at a constant rhythm over the years since Sarkozy's time. After the state of urgency of 2015, part of the dispositions where simply put into law permanently. Police has been increasingly violent during protests, bringing back old forbidden tactics and squads formerly dissolved for their violence (voltigeurs). While there has been no dissolution of leftist movement and no political violence from the left since "action directe" in the 80's, there have been multiple ones (or attempts) in recent times, like the one from yesterday of an ecological movement. Anti-terrorist laws are used to detain ecologists or protesters indefinitely, like in the case of the "8th november" affair from this topic, which has seen a person kept in solitary (hence, tortured) for 16 months without even being convicted.
- qsdf38100 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - HourglassFR 3y ago
    > You are attacking the wrong target. You are missing the big picture. This is rich comming from someone putting Melenchon, basically an old school socialist (in the werstern Europe sense), in the same bag as Le Pen and Zemmour who are as far-right as it gets in Europe. I agree that the situation is not very readable, but at least let's try to have a point of view consistent with the political history of the last few decades.
    - qsdf38100 3y ago
      Yet there are lot of striking similarities. Lying, distorting reality to the absurd, openly supporting dictators, smoke-screen tactics, obstruction, inversion of reality, accusing others of things they are guilty. "Macron is a wanabee dictator!!". In February 2022, Zemour, MLP and Mélenchon were all supporting Putin, his stance against the "evil US", saying that Putin would never invade Ukraine, that it was all US propaganda being spoon-fed to Europe. Then the invasion happened. Then they blamed the invasion on US, of course, and questioned the reports of war crimes, and justified Russia invasion by saying it was defending against "NATO aggression". But then, when Russia started to loose, they became "pacifists", saying NATO was prolonging the war by helping Ukraine... If they were Russian assets, they wouldn't behave much differently, would they? Same smell on both sides of the political spectrum. Who would have thought? Crazy, right? Like, imagine if far-right Hitler made a secret pact with the communist Soviet Union. Sounds familiar?
light_hue_1 3y ago
[flagged]
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - ethbr0 3y ago
    > Any concentration of power is bad Multiple failed, weak democracies that were subsequently replaced by dictatorships, several in France, would beg to differ. It's a balance between centralization (stability) and decentralization (individualism). Too much of either is corrosive.
  - gwd 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - indymike 3y ago
      > At best we'd've had a civil war. The best part of that January was that a coup and/or civil war did not happen. The US got on with business. It could have went bad, but it did not do so.
      - Arainach 3y ago
        A coup doesn't have to be successful to be a coup.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
        > The best part ... was that a coup ... did not happen Strong disagree: a half-assed, incompetently executed, failed bank robbery is still classed as and prosecuted as "bank robbery", there is no separate legal category for "attempted bank robbery". It's the same with a failed coup. "the coup failed pathetically" is categorically different from "a coup did not happen".
- lucasRW 3y ago

pif 3y ago

I live in France as well, and personally do not feel the same negativity as you. What I don't appreciate at all is our share of idiots that think that blocking the country is a proper way of protesting (see "gilets jaunes"). That is not democratic, when a minority imposes their will to the silent majority.

Qiu_Zhanxuan 3y ago
I'm always appalled by comments like these that justify their sympathy for authoritarian practices simply because they align with their interests. I'm in Paris, France, and police brutality has been increasing hand in hand with the corrupt nature of our government over the last decade, and it's horrifying. The apple is completely rotten; the way our election system works and all the dirty tricks you can do when you're in power mean people are not left with any other choice but to revolt. This does not bode well for our country.
- pif 3y ago
  > sympathy for authoritarian practices simply because they align with their interests Nothing personal, I'm talking about the interests of all the voters who freely elected the current president and parliament. If you are not happy, it's our duty as a society to provide you a way to express your point. But the right to express your point does not involve the violence to get our attention. Most people just want to go on with their daily life, and putting obstacles to them will not gather any sympathy around you.
beremaki 3y ago
What gilets jaunes or blocking whatever have anything to do with violating parliamentary rights ? Or making protests of disappointment (edit: disapproval) illegal everywhere the president go ? What can anyone do about a president that abuses its power ? This is a basic democratic issue and I am pessimistic because a lot of people like you just don't seem to get it, so we won't address that and when it is going to be too late it will be too late. You might like or trust the current government but what about the next one ?

paganel 3y ago

First they came for the Gilets Jaunes... I know that that particular reply of mine doesn't help your particular case, but it was sickening to see how much of the supposed French people's liberties and citizens rights were broken back then and how most of the French intelligentsia was just cheering the government from the side.

pif 3y ago
> First they came for the Gilets Jaunes... Actually, they came too late for the Gilets Jaunes! > it was sickening to see how much of the supposed French people's liberties and citizens rights were broken back then I agree with you, a bunch of idiots holding a whole country hostage was not at all what one would expect in a sane democracy.
- paganel 3y ago
  That's the spirit of "he has promised us that he'll let us enjoy our assignats in peace and bring order to the country by ending the revolution", i.e. the spirit that helped Napoleon got hold of power. I think trying to end the revolution is still an ongoing thing in today's France, for better or for worse.
  - pif 3y ago
    > trying to end the revolution is still an ongoing thing in I don't agree. France is as wonderful as it is because revolution was successfully completed long ago.
- James_bread 3y ago
  Pif, your messages here align mostly with authoritarianism and fascism. You don't seem to care about people their freedom, their rights or real democracy. It's not a minority that holds the country hostage it's a minority who have the balls to standup against a small elite who have all power. Having to pick out of two evils has nothing to do with democracy.
  - 3y ago

Nemrod67 3y ago

As you can see from other replies: - the French people did not care that they had to sign a paper to get out to walk - that we closed libraries and forbade people from buying clothes in supermarkets - that Macron has been in charge of the country's finances for over a decade with horrid results (+600B€ in debt) - that Macron did everything he said he would not, and said a lot of things that would be treason in a reasonable civilization We are the rooster that sings with it's feet deep in shite. It's gonna get ugly when it hits the fan.

napo 3y ago
"the French people did not care that they had to sign a paper to get out to walk" 1- Don't you think this is quite political? Like what is your benefit from saying this out of context? If signing this paper and being stricter helped the hospitals not being saturated and saved x thousands lives do you still think it was a bad thing? (I'm not even saying that's the case I'm just saying you don't seem to take that possibility into account at all) 2- From my observations French people -constently- complain about this. So I wouldn't say they didn't care about it. You're doing it right now.
- 0xParlay 3y ago
  >> If signing this paper and being stricter helped the hospitals not being saturated and saved x thousands lives do you still think it was a bad thing? If banning encryption and helping police stop terrorism saved x thousand lives do you blah blah blah blah Do programmers hang out here? The aversion to reasoning from first principle is palpable.
- golergka 3y ago
  > If signing this paper and being stricter helped the hospitals not being saturated and saved x thousands lives do you still think it was a bad thing? If patriot act helped US intelligence agencies prevent the next 9/11, do you still think it was a bad thing?
- tourmalinetaco 3y ago
  > Don't you think this is quite political? We’re discussing politics. > Like what is your benefit from saying this out of context? What does that even mean? Are you insinuating they’re being paid to say that? How do we know you’re not paid to counter them? > If signing this paper and being stricter helped the hospitals not being saturated and saved x thousands lives do you still think it was a bad thing? The problem is you and no one else could prove now or then that giving up my human rights would save lives. Because its all pointless lip service to take power away from the people under the guise of “protection”. Just like with encryption, personal weapons, and everything else that governments don’t want us to have. > I'm just saying you don't seem to take that possibility into account at all And I’m saying you haven’t taken into account that you’re an Authoritarian apologist.

throwaway290 3y ago

I am not French but my opinion of the current government is at rock bottom after how Macron recently went to China to basically suck up to Xi Jinping, completely ignoring human rights violations and all. And for what?

jle17 3y ago
Oh it's not just Xi. He likes dictators and human rights abusers, even those that no one will touch with a ten foot pole. Most recently, he received Mohammed bin Salman at the Élysée.
tut-urut-utut 3y ago
You criticise Macron for visiting a „dictator“ but not for being dictator himself? Macrons pushing of retirement law change against both public and parliament is definitely not democratic.
- ikt 3y ago
  I think maybe because the rest of the world sees those changes he pushed through as incredibly mild he increased the pension age because people are getting older and the state will not be able to afford it? wow what a crazy dictator
  - derelicta 3y ago
    He used emergency powers to pass the law because he knew such law would hardly survive the regular legisative process. It might not be a Putin-style dictatorships but its definitively heading in the wrong direction. And thats without mentionning the use of abuse of administration prohibitions towards anti-racist associations and environmental groups.
    - martin8412 3y ago
      How would it ever pass normal legislative process? If I tell you that you have spend two more years working and there's no benefit for you at all, would you vote for it?

tokai 3y ago

This sounds like the normal mode for french politics. How many times has your government collapsed over the last 200 years? You're on the 5th republic or something right?

barrysteve 3y ago
Yep and compared to European history this is tame.
gorjusborg 3y ago
Better to have governments collapse than allow society to collapse. I can't claim to be an expert in French politics, but harmful government should not be allowed to be stable.
ohgodplsno 3y ago
To be fair, a bunch of these happened because of wars, we didn't really control these ones. The other bunch happened because they were precariously unstable governments.

nunja 3y ago

Frenchman, pro business too. Completely share your analysis. This is slowly turning into a shit démocrature.

flashfaffe2 3y ago
Short debate on the same topic on french TV: https://youtu.be/5Sf6hdnSqS4 https://youtu.be/5Sf6hdnSqS4

Draiken 3y ago

I'm from Brazil and I'd say we've just had that disaster election you fear a few years ago. I used to laugh at the absurdities of the Trump government thinking it would never happen here and alas, it did. And it was even worse than most could have ever imagined. Don't get me wrong, I didn't like the previous government and already dislike the current one's direction, but when you take one person that truly doesn't give a f**, they can ruin a country in ways you didn't even know existed. But I don't really see a way out though. Most politicians here (probably everywhere if we're honest) are corrupt so you always choose between the lesser of many evils. The obvious solution is to actually use our collective power to rebel and really enact change - something ironically we say the French are good at - but it simply never happens. Looking at the French protests against the rise of retirement age gave me hope. But then you look at the outcome and it's always the same: we lose. I honestly think the system has won. Capitalism successfully made everyone (myself included) just comfortable enough to not really take action. We are the proverbial frogs in boiling water and slowly but surely normalizing this insane world we live in today giving away all our hard-fought rights to our capitalist overlords. We get upset and yell at the void, Twitter, HN, blog posts and don't actually DO anything. I truly hate myself for that. Meanwhile those that actually do something, have their efforts stifled away by governments with ease. Perhaps I am a bit too pessimistic about this, but from where I stand, there's no way out.

denton-scratch 3y ago
> but from where I stand, there's no way out. I know how you feel! I'm from the UK. Corbyn's Labour seemed to me to be a glimmer of hope; but he was pushed out by the MSM and a cabal of his own party's rightist officials, and replaced by a man who immediately on getting the leadership, repudiated all his manifesto promises. So I no longer have anyone to vote for, and I favour revolution.

ajsnigrutin 3y ago

France kinda has a history of things going bad, their rulers overreaching, and people then taking matters into their own heads,... I somehow hope this time it can end less violently, but with how much (a lot of french) people hate macron, you never know... The larger problem is, that it is spreading to other countries and EU itself (just think of how many times EU tried to stop/backdoor/outlaw encryption). Add a new upcoming crisis, recession in germany and the long-term problems brought with eu expansion, and things are about to get even worse.

qsdf38100 3y ago

Come on, this is so exaggerated. If you care about democracy, you have much more relevant menace in France. People are screaming about Macron for some reason. Because they were told he is a DiCtAtOr!! Because he didn’t fold to unions. Apparently unions are to be obeyed otherwise you are a dictator? While obeying to elected government is dictatorship? It’s a nice inversion. The true authoritarian menace in France comes from the far right and far left. Melenchon is in love with authoritarian leaders (see bolivarian alliance), he can’t help screaming at people that disagree with him. His political career should have been ended by just a few of his outbursts. But he gets a pass for some reason. And don’t get me started on the far right, screaming that we are in a dictatorship while admiring Putin… Of course you can criticize Macron, he’s far from perfect, but if you care about democracy, focusing on him being THE issue is outright ridiculous. We have far more serious threats. You are completely missing the big picture. And people being told to fight Macron instead of the extremes is a serious threat. I can’t believe I have to explain that.

skitout 3y ago
Well, democracy is not 0 or 1, there are shades... So for sure Macron is not a dictator, but French democracy "grade" was not super high and it did went down. French 5th republic is sometimes nicknamed "presidential monarchy"... Electing the parliament quite at the same time as the president did reinforced the power of the president. The rise of the far right basically made that the one in the best position against far right at the first round of presidential election (with less than 20% of French people voting for him) be sure of being a Presidential Monarch for 5 years. (Notes that the leftist like Melanchon support a new constitution with more democracy, more counter power, less power for the president...) Note also that in France people working do democratically vote for unions (even if you are not unionized), and quite 100% of those votes went to union that are strongly against las Pension Law. According to polls more than 90% of the workers were against this law. And Macron could not pass this law in the elected parliament, and had to twist the constitution to pass it... This can be seen as problematic for many. When it come to protest, a lot of NGO and international bodies criticized the way France handle it. Many people are afraid to prostest in France now. Even the journalist of the righ wing newspaper le Figaro protest several time against police brutality against journalist in protest. NOte that France is the only country in EUrope to use many kind of weapon against protestors, weapon that can kill . When it comes to journalists. Aside of being target by police during the protest, we've seen also a growing Judicial pressure against them. And now the government is talking about law where they could be spied... "Because" of terrorism we've seen different law reducing the privacy of people... and many exceptional law that are hijacked to target people who are political opponent but not terrorist (like a police raid without judge OK against peaceful ecologists, or using antiterrorist law to forbid some peacefull protest) Even the normal law are "twisted" is a problematic way. Like arresting random protesters and keeping them for the night. Or arresting the leader of a group for a fake reason and then searshing his phone flat computer for intel... FOr sure France is not a dictature, but things are not good and are not going in a good way

kome 3y ago

very very well said

WastingMyTime89 3y ago

Classic French answer confusing the fairly good situation in the country for a disaster. France has been for the past sixty years and remains an extremely technocratic country. Counter-powers are still everywhere in the administration. The judiciary system is fully independent and works well. The balance between the parliament and the executive is extremely in favour of the president (which is still elected every five years during free elections) but counter-powers exist. They can’t be used by the opposition because despite spending all their time crying wolf and explaining this is the end of the world, they remain a minority and have nothing to propose anyway. The issue in France remains the same it has always been. The population is old, largely apathetic and would much rather be on the dole than produce anything of value. Meanwhile the unions are extremely unrepresentative of the population as a whole and remain stuck in the Trotskyist heydays of the past.

Guthur 3y ago
Oh yeah everyone must work harder, for some reason we have more technology than ever before and more people than ever before, but we all must work harder. There's enough food and energy if we so choose but no; artificial crisis from coughs to barbarian hordes on the horizon mean you must be poorer and work harder. We could all just actually wake up and realise they are lying they are always lying. They dare not tell the truth for you'd realise how much they lie when truth would shine so bright.
- WastingMyTime89 3y ago
  You are confused. The issue is not about working harder. The issue is with producing value. I have yet to met a protester who can explain to me how burning cars and picketing is going to magically move down the median age of the population which is slowly but surely drifting towards 50. Considering most French also don’t want to rely on immigration (not that the country is attractive anyway), I guess they are either planning to force people to make kids at gunpoint or are strongly in denial. Don’t hesitate to explain who is this mysterious "they" who are apparently responsible of everything wrong in the country.

mytailorisrich 3y ago

I think we should not go over the top. The case reported in this article started when French people who went to fight in Syria among Kurdish militants came back to France and were put under surveillance. Even if the prosecution is using unconvincing evidence, which I don't know, this is hardly a sign of impending doom.

raxxorraxor 3y ago

I think the situation in France is quite similar to other EU countries, even the formerly holy nordic ones. > [...] l’utilisation de messageries chiffrées grand public, sont instrumentalisées comme autant de « preuves » d’une soi-disant « clandestinité » qui ne peut s’expliquer que par l’existence d’un projet terroriste. Sure, using encryption must mean I have terroistic ambitions... they say public officials lack creativity, but... but at least the government got convicted for their attempts at prosecution. Means the justice system is still functioning.