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I have had well-educated French acquaintences telling me for a decade that France is ripe for a new system of government; the 6th in its history. Many current

by marvin 3y ago

I have had well-educated French acquaintences telling me for a decade that France is ripe for a new system of government; the 6th in its history. Many current problems stem from the fact that post-war mechanisms written into the governmental system are abused by the president and elected leaders. E.g. presidential overruling of parlamental votes.

conradfr 3y ago
We celebrate the revolution and throwing out the king while basically electing a new one every five years that will magically solve all of our problems.
- nolok 3y ago
  We celebrate the revolution while ignoring it went terribly, being in terms of rights, economy or basically anything else, and we happily put an emperor on the throne less than a decade later
  - baud147258 3y ago
    > we happily put an emperor on the throne less than a decade later to be fair, the emperor climbed on the throne pretty much on his own; I think he had support across broad parts of the population, but it's not as if he was elected (and he didn't even start as an emperor, that came a few years after his coup)
    - nolok 3y ago
      To quote him ; > I did not steal the crown. I found it lying in the gutter, and I picked it up with the sword. But it was the people who placed it on my head. The man was massively popular with the populace [1] [2] and he got elected emperor with a referendum [3] to which 7 million people were called. By modern standard that barely qualifies, but for an emperor in 1804 ... A common misconception was that the revolution was to remove the all powerful head of state. It wasn't, the people just wanted a competent one and improved living conditions. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/277eu3/why_is_napoleon_so_revered_in_france_despite_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/277eu3/why_i... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/gli6nn/considering_that_one_of_the_reasons_why_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/gli6nn/consi... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_French_constitutional_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_French_constitutional_ref...
  - reddit_refugee3 3y ago
    I wouldn't say it went terribly in terms of rights, necessarily. The French Revolution was a massive influence on every other post-enlightenment democracy that came after it. Without the French Revolution (and yes, that includes its failures), we very well could all still be living in different versions of feudalism. The French Revolution paved the way for just about every pro-worker reform in the modern world.
derelicta 3y ago
yup. thats why some folks love to call the current political system a "presidential monarchy", due to the overreaching executive powers granted to the president of the republic.
nolok 3y ago
> I have had well-educated French acquaintences telling me for a decade that France is ripe for a new system of government First, this is not "well-educated French acquaintences" so much as it is supporters of Melanchon's LFI political party, who explicitely campaign on the idea of ending the 5th republic to start a 6th where all problem would be magically solved. Second, the reason I hate his proposal, is because he explicitely refuses to give any specific detail on what the 6th republic would be. He claims it would be "decided by the public" but there is no reason why a pre work couldn't be done BEFORE. In effect, he pretends to be saying "we will end the 5th for a better 6th", but what he's actually saying is "let's end the one we have now instead of fixing it, and replace it with something I will have the power to decide, you must accept to throw it away without knowing what you will get in exchange or how it will be made but trust me it will totally be better and I will totally let the people decide". Our 5th republic might be flawed, but I'm not putting it in the trash without any idea of what we will get in return, that's brexit referendum level of flawed. And I will always be weary of someone who claims to have a simple solution to a complex problem, on the condition that I give him power over me, especially if another condition is that I cannot know what said solution is before making my decision. Third, > the 6th in its history Would be the 6th republic sure, but absolutely not the 6th "system of government", it would be like our 25th or something ?
- pjerem 3y ago
  I’m sorry but it’s more than the left. Even right and centrists people who were ok with the retirement reform are saying that they don’t accept how it have been forced on the parliament. It was one of the most important and most protested reform of the last decades and the president / government used every constitutional breach they could to avoid any vote from people's representatives. Charles de Courson, who tried to force the vote by proposing an abrogation of the law to the parliament is not really a leftist, he was even going to vote himself in favor of the reform. We, the French, elected a parliament where Macron didn’t have the absolute majority and Macron tries everything he can to avoid the parliament when he know he will not have enough votes. It’s a democracy crisis wether you are from the left or from the right because Macron is interpreting the constitution like he can dismissal the parliament when he wants although most French didn’t vote for his party.
ohgodplsno 3y ago
The fifth republic is the result of a coup by a military leader (De Gaulle) that was in talks with commanders of tank divisions to drive to Paris should he not be instated president and allowed to write his own constitution (written by Pierre Debré, a friend of his). It was ripe to burn since 1958.
- Animats 3y ago
  "The iron was hot. I struck it." - De Gaulle
  - moritzwarhier 3y ago
    Is this an actual quote? Interested regardless of the topic of this comment thread. Couldn't find any source online except for this comment. Might be because of tranalation though.
- nolok 3y ago
  Calling it a coup is highly debatable and debated. It happened outside of the scope of what the 4th happened, and it happened because the 4th had broken down and was not working anymore. It should be noted that some of the main people who called to view it as a coup were people from other parts of the political spectrum who had other ideas of how it should happen and who should end up in power, including Mitterand (who ended up president of the 5th in 1986). These people however were also for the end of the 4th.
  - paganel 3y ago
    The military guys from Algeria had already put their hands on Corsica, plus, the iminent threat of the landing on the shores of Southern France (or via an aerial operation, can't remember exactly) of said military forces was heavily used by de Gaulle during the negotiations that got him into power.
- paganel 3y ago
  For those who can read French and who would want to learn more about this I heartily recommend the recently published Gouverner la France [1] (Governing France), a collection of books written by Michel Winock as part of the prestigious Quarto Gallimard series. It includes titles like L'Agonie de la IVème République (Agony of the Fourth Republic), La fièvre hexagonale : les grandes crises politiques de 1871 à 1968 (Hexagon Fever: Major Political Crises from 1871 to 1968) and a pretty good biography of de Gaulle. It's from that book that I learned of all the craziness of 1958, the one that involved general Salan (who would be sentenced to death a few years after that for trying a coup against de Gaulle) and all. [1] https://www.amazon.fr/Gouverner-France-Michel-Winock/dp/2072948800 https://www.amazon.fr/Gouverner-France-Michel-Winock/dp/2072...
School-Cotton 3y ago
> the 6th in its history. I assume they were alluding to the fact that the current French state is called the “Fifth Republic” but there were various non-Republic regimes as well so it would actually be more than the 6th “system of government”.

by marvin 3y ago

conradfr 3y ago

We celebrate the revolution and throwing out the king while basically electing a new one every five years that will magically solve all of our problems.

nolok 3y ago
We celebrate the revolution while ignoring it went terribly, being in terms of rights, economy or basically anything else, and we happily put an emperor on the throne less than a decade later
- baud147258 3y ago
  > we happily put an emperor on the throne less than a decade later to be fair, the emperor climbed on the throne pretty much on his own; I think he had support across broad parts of the population, but it's not as if he was elected (and he didn't even start as an emperor, that came a few years after his coup)
  - nolok 3y ago
    To quote him ; > I did not steal the crown. I found it lying in the gutter, and I picked it up with the sword. But it was the people who placed it on my head. The man was massively popular with the populace [1] [2] and he got elected emperor with a referendum [3] to which 7 million people were called. By modern standard that barely qualifies, but for an emperor in 1804 ... A common misconception was that the revolution was to remove the all powerful head of state. It wasn't, the people just wanted a competent one and improved living conditions. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/277eu3/why_is_napoleon_so_revered_in_france_despite_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/277eu3/why_i... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/gli6nn/considering_that_one_of_the_reasons_why_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/gli6nn/consi... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_French_constitutional_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_French_constitutional_ref...
- reddit_refugee3 3y ago
  I wouldn't say it went terribly in terms of rights, necessarily. The French Revolution was a massive influence on every other post-enlightenment democracy that came after it. Without the French Revolution (and yes, that includes its failures), we very well could all still be living in different versions of feudalism. The French Revolution paved the way for just about every pro-worker reform in the modern world.

derelicta 3y ago

yup. thats why some folks love to call the current political system a "presidential monarchy", due to the overreaching executive powers granted to the president of the republic.

nolok 3y ago

> I have had well-educated French acquaintences telling me for a decade that France is ripe for a new system of government First, this is not "well-educated French acquaintences" so much as it is supporters of Melanchon's LFI political party, who explicitely campaign on the idea of ending the 5th republic to start a 6th where all problem would be magically solved. Second, the reason I hate his proposal, is because he explicitely refuses to give any specific detail on what the 6th republic would be. He claims it would be "decided by the public" but there is no reason why a pre work couldn't be done BEFORE. In effect, he pretends to be saying "we will end the 5th for a better 6th", but what he's actually saying is "let's end the one we have now instead of fixing it, and replace it with something I will have the power to decide, you must accept to throw it away without knowing what you will get in exchange or how it will be made but trust me it will totally be better and I will totally let the people decide". Our 5th republic might be flawed, but I'm not putting it in the trash without any idea of what we will get in return, that's brexit referendum level of flawed. And I will always be weary of someone who claims to have a simple solution to a complex problem, on the condition that I give him power over me, especially if another condition is that I cannot know what said solution is before making my decision. Third, > the 6th in its history Would be the 6th republic sure, but absolutely not the 6th "system of government", it would be like our 25th or something ?

pjerem 3y ago
I’m sorry but it’s more than the left. Even right and centrists people who were ok with the retirement reform are saying that they don’t accept how it have been forced on the parliament. It was one of the most important and most protested reform of the last decades and the president / government used every constitutional breach they could to avoid any vote from people's representatives. Charles de Courson, who tried to force the vote by proposing an abrogation of the law to the parliament is not really a leftist, he was even going to vote himself in favor of the reform. We, the French, elected a parliament where Macron didn’t have the absolute majority and Macron tries everything he can to avoid the parliament when he know he will not have enough votes. It’s a democracy crisis wether you are from the left or from the right because Macron is interpreting the constitution like he can dismissal the parliament when he wants although most French didn’t vote for his party.

ohgodplsno 3y ago

The fifth republic is the result of a coup by a military leader (De Gaulle) that was in talks with commanders of tank divisions to drive to Paris should he not be instated president and allowed to write his own constitution (written by Pierre Debré, a friend of his). It was ripe to burn since 1958.

Animats 3y ago
"The iron was hot. I struck it." - De Gaulle
- moritzwarhier 3y ago
  Is this an actual quote? Interested regardless of the topic of this comment thread. Couldn't find any source online except for this comment. Might be because of tranalation though.
nolok 3y ago
Calling it a coup is highly debatable and debated. It happened outside of the scope of what the 4th happened, and it happened because the 4th had broken down and was not working anymore. It should be noted that some of the main people who called to view it as a coup were people from other parts of the political spectrum who had other ideas of how it should happen and who should end up in power, including Mitterand (who ended up president of the 5th in 1986). These people however were also for the end of the 4th.
- paganel 3y ago
  The military guys from Algeria had already put their hands on Corsica, plus, the iminent threat of the landing on the shores of Southern France (or via an aerial operation, can't remember exactly) of said military forces was heavily used by de Gaulle during the negotiations that got him into power.
paganel 3y ago
For those who can read French and who would want to learn more about this I heartily recommend the recently published Gouverner la France [1] (Governing France), a collection of books written by Michel Winock as part of the prestigious Quarto Gallimard series. It includes titles like L'Agonie de la IVème République (Agony of the Fourth Republic), La fièvre hexagonale : les grandes crises politiques de 1871 à 1968 (Hexagon Fever: Major Political Crises from 1871 to 1968) and a pretty good biography of de Gaulle. It's from that book that I learned of all the craziness of 1958, the one that involved general Salan (who would be sentenced to death a few years after that for trying a coup against de Gaulle) and all. [1] https://www.amazon.fr/Gouverner-France-Michel-Winock/dp/2072948800 https://www.amazon.fr/Gouverner-France-Michel-Winock/dp/2072...

School-Cotton 3y ago

> the 6th in its history. I assume they were alluding to the fact that the current French state is called the “Fifth Republic” but there were various non-Republic regimes as well so it would actually be more than the 6th “system of government”.