3 ms·

>Most of what causes low performance in schools is beyond the ability of schools to address. It's why we keep trying reforms and they don't do much—and when th

>Most of what causes low performance in schools is beyond the ability of schools to address. It's why we keep trying reforms and they don't do much—and when they appear to, it usually turns out, in the long run, to have been dumb luck or number-fudging, either intentional or because the people involved don't know how statistics work. I disagree completely. I contend that the "reforms" we try don't do much because the people in charge of deciding what "reforms" are needed are incompetent, corrupt bureaucrats, lobbyists and union officials. The state of Mississippi, which is far poorer and spends far less than the ~$26,000 per student per year than New York spends has had far better educational outcomes (Despite the fact that Mississippi is one of the poorest states with a much higher level of poverty). https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/31/opinion/mississippi-education-poverty.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/31/opinion/mississippi-educa...

confidantlake 3y ago
The article is paywalled so I can't read it, but I don't believe for a second that Mississippi has better educational outcomes than New York. Every single ranking I have seen puts Mississippi in the bottom 3 in terms of educational outcomes, with it usually coming dead last. New York at worst is somewhere in the top half of states, I usually see it in the top 10.
- StanislavPetrov 3y ago
  >I don't believe for a second that Mississippi has better educational outcomes than New York. Unfortunately objective reality is never a factor when it comes to zealots and true believers. The facts remains the facts - which is why zealots and true believers seek to abolish standardized testing and objective metrics wherever they are found.
  - confidantlake 3y ago
    Oh the irony. You are right the facts don't lie. From the sibling comment. "Mississippi is slightly better on the NAEP 4th grade math test, and substantially behind on all other tests." Come on man, this is Mississippi. You really think it is doing better than New York in education? Only a zealot ranting about bureaucrats and unions could believe such nonsense.
- tetromino_ 3y ago
  See data here: https://apps.urban.org/features/naep/ https://apps.urban.org/features/naep/ In terms of raw scores, Mississippi is slightly ahead of New York on the NAEP 4th grade math test, and substantially behind on all other tests. But NAEP claims that if you adjust the raw scores by the state's poverty and other disadvantage level, Mississippi would actually be ahead of NY.
  - confidantlake 3y ago
    Cool ty for the info. As I suspected New York is way ahead of Mississippi in everything but a single test.
cristiancavalli 3y ago
There’s a lot of manipulation states do to specifically juice these scores, this is widely written about for Mississippi: https://radicalscholarship.com/2019/12/06/mississippi-miracle-or-mirage-2019-naep-reading-scores-prompt-questions-not-answers/ https://radicalscholarship.com/2019/12/06/mississippi-miracl... http://hechingerreport.org/repeating-third-grade-good-kids/ http://hechingerreport.org/repeating-third-grade-good-kids/ Another good example of how the standardized tests are incredibly poor indicators of actual success on a wholistic basis. These gains you pointed out actually disappear (in the naeb’s own data) by eighth grade — furthering the idea that the changes done my Mississippi are not, in fact, a miracle but another political effort to put a band-aid on a problem.

confidantlake 3y ago

The article is paywalled so I can't read it, but I don't believe for a second that Mississippi has better educational outcomes than New York. Every single ranking I have seen puts Mississippi in the bottom 3 in terms of educational outcomes, with it usually coming dead last. New York at worst is somewhere in the top half of states, I usually see it in the top 10.

StanislavPetrov 3y ago
>I don't believe for a second that Mississippi has better educational outcomes than New York. Unfortunately objective reality is never a factor when it comes to zealots and true believers. The facts remains the facts - which is why zealots and true believers seek to abolish standardized testing and objective metrics wherever they are found.
- confidantlake 3y ago
  Oh the irony. You are right the facts don't lie. From the sibling comment. "Mississippi is slightly better on the NAEP 4th grade math test, and substantially behind on all other tests." Come on man, this is Mississippi. You really think it is doing better than New York in education? Only a zealot ranting about bureaucrats and unions could believe such nonsense.
tetromino_ 3y ago
See data here: https://apps.urban.org/features/naep/ https://apps.urban.org/features/naep/ In terms of raw scores, Mississippi is slightly ahead of New York on the NAEP 4th grade math test, and substantially behind on all other tests. But NAEP claims that if you adjust the raw scores by the state's poverty and other disadvantage level, Mississippi would actually be ahead of NY.
- confidantlake 3y ago
  Cool ty for the info. As I suspected New York is way ahead of Mississippi in everything but a single test.

cristiancavalli 3y ago

There’s a lot of manipulation states do to specifically juice these scores, this is widely written about for Mississippi: https://radicalscholarship.com/2019/12/06/mississippi-miracle-or-mirage-2019-naep-reading-scores-prompt-questions-not-answers/ https://radicalscholarship.com/2019/12/06/mississippi-miracl... http://hechingerreport.org/repeating-third-grade-good-kids/ http://hechingerreport.org/repeating-third-grade-good-kids/ Another good example of how the standardized tests are incredibly poor indicators of actual success on a wholistic basis. These gains you pointed out actually disappear (in the naeb’s own data) by eighth grade — furthering the idea that the changes done my Mississippi are not, in fact, a miracle but another political effort to put a band-aid on a problem.