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"I don't make trucks like that," Farley said. "I make trucks for real people who do real work, and that's a different kind of truck." You also make trucks that

"I don't make trucks like that," Farley said. "I make trucks for real people who do real work, and that's a different kind of truck." You also make trucks that regular people don't need but buy anyway, and make our streets less safe. We need some regulation to only allow vehicles over a certain size to be commercial only.

wilg 3y ago
Why not regulate safety instead of size?
- binarymax 3y ago
  Dimensions are easier to quantify than safety.
- bioemerl 3y ago
  The two are roughly the same. A big truck is more deadly to smaller vehicles and we shouldn't make it unsafe to drive a regular sized car instead of one of these monstrously large trucks. You could regulate things like requiring stop gates on trucks like semi trucks have though, which would at least help.
  - wilg 3y ago
    I just really want to see a detailed study or article that really focuses on the details of pickup safety versus other cars, with empirical data about the different factors, how and why they differ, and ways of mitigating them. Seems like an important input for regulators. There's a lot of anti-car handwaving in discussions like this that would be good to cut through (for everybody involved).
  - mattnewton 3y ago
    This would leave the main problems of lower visibility and the higher mass creating a higher more dangerous impact for other cars and pedestrians.
- alistairSH 3y ago
  Physics dictates that mass has a significant impact on safety. Especially for people outside the big-ass truck.
  - metaphor 3y ago
    That's a hard sell when the curb weight of a Tesla Model Y is identical to a Ford F-150 5.0L V8 SuperCab with 6.5-ft bed.
    - alistairSH 3y ago
      That’s fair. The Tesla is too heavy as well. [dreams about “fun” cars like my old 2200lb Miata]
      - wilg 3y ago
        "Too heavy" in some sense, but the engineering trade off is a pretty good one! Your average Tesla is about: - 1.9x as heavy as the Miata - 4.3x as energy efficient as the Miata - 1.7x faster acceleration vs Miata - 0.2x the emissions of the Miata on a typical power mix (0x on solar)
  - tzs 3y ago
    > Physics dictates that mass has a significant impact on safety I suspect that once you have enough mass though then it is velocity that determines the impact on safety. Getting hit at 50 mph by a Ford F-150 that has a total mass (truck plus cargo) of 9000 pounds is not going to be much more harmful to a pedestrian than getting hit by a similar shaped truck at the same speed that has half that mass. Similarly on the other end if velocity is low enough mass won't matter. Consider for example getting hit by a freight train at 1 mph. Unless the collision knocks you over and you fall under the train it probably won't be fatal (and likely won't even injure you). Even though that freight train would have 300 times the momentum and 6 times the kinetic energy of the 50 mph 9000 pound truck it would be fine.
    - alistairSH 3y ago
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  Because it's less about facts and more about moralizing.
- disco_framework 3y ago
  Honestly why not both? The length of these things only can be an issue when it comes to parking lots.
- thsksbd 3y ago
  Safety is why vehicles have gotten so big. In a collision, all else being equal, you always want to be in the bigger car. Its literally grade 10 physics. But we can have our cake and eat it too. Safer, environmentally sound vehicles and as big as we want them.... by simply lowering and enforcing speed limits.
jlmn 3y ago
> "I don't make trucks like that," Farley said. "I make trucks for real people who do real work, and that's a different kind of truck." "I don't make trucks regular people want... I make trucks for people who want to spend lots of money" – a more accurate statement, I think. Also amusing coming from the CEO of a brand who's electric truck starts at $60,000 for a "work truck" with vinyl seats, and climbs to nearly $100,000. Sounds pretty "Silicon Valley" to me, at least as far as price is concerned.
- aobdev 3y ago
  > at least as far as price is concerned There is a significant portion of the USA that will take on 84 month loans, make negative-equity trade-ins, or refinance their homes if it means they can get a new truck.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  > Also amusing coming from the CEO of a brand who's electric truck starts at $60,000 for a "work truck" with vinyl seats, and climbs to nearly $100,000 Agreed, but if anyone thinks the CyberTruck is coming out at $39K like Elon originally promised, I have a bridge to sell you.
  - ohgodplsno 3y ago
    If anyone thinks the CyberTruck is coming out, I'll sell you the land for that bridge.
    - wilg 3y ago
      It's all but guaranteed to come out, I think, probably this year, depending on how you define "come out".
    - miohtama 3y ago
      But when it comes out it will sell like ice-cream in Hell, despite how bad or expensive it is.
    - taway1874 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
subsubzero 3y ago
before the Obama administrations emissions rules[1] trucks and suv's were quite small, blame the rules put out in that ruling for why trucks and suvs are so gigantic, I too am frustrated with how big they are and I own a new truck! [1] - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-emissions-suvs-size-explainer/explainer-how-u-s-emissions-rules-encourage-larger-suvs-and-trucks-idUSKBN21D1KK https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-emissions-suvs-size...
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  Trucks were plenty big before Obama. An F150 today is largely similar dimensionally to one from, say, 2005. But it's generally lighter than a comparable version from then.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    They are both larger and heavier than in 2005. This also reduces the efficiency requirements.
  - subsubzero 3y ago
    For a few ones that have absolutely jumped in size, toyota (tundra, tacoma, also the 4runner). 4runners in the 90's were tiny! also a tacoma now feels almost bigger than a early 2000's Tundra which is insane.
FireBeyond 3y ago
> and make our streets less safe Agreed, but also, the Cybertruck seems like it is going to have very similar problems for safety. The blind spots are massive, for one.
- the_third_wave 3y ago
  I'd assume they´d ue some of that "cyber" technology to eradicate things like "blind spots" from a vehicle carrying the "cyber" moniker. Cameras on the outside provide imagery of whatever goes on in the "blind" areas which is then displayed on flexible screens attached to pillars and other "blind spot" generating infrastructure. Alternatively and cheaper, some type of projector is used to project the outside world on the interior.
thsksbd 3y ago
The F150 has an aluminum chassis and some configurations weighs less than the lightest Tesla S.
xyzelement 3y ago
The idea that trucks are dangerous and unnecessary is pretty prevalent on HN, and I can follow the physics argument but the same argument can apply to anything (a bicycle is more dangerous than a pedestrian) Are there stats that show that these trucks cause a social problem worthy of regulation, or do we just not like the archetypical truck guy?
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  Its also safer for the same reason
- staplor 3y ago
  > The authors find that being hit by a 1,000-pound heavier vehicle results in a 47 percent increase in the baseline probability of being killed in the accident https://www.nber.org/digest/nov11/vehicle-weight-and-automotive-fatalities https://www.nber.org/digest/nov11/vehicle-weight-and-automot...
  - akomtu 3y ago
    What's the rate of such collisions for trucks and sedans?
    - staplor 3y ago
      The linked article just looked at collisions that happened and compared danger by vehicle weight. If I had to guess, I would assume lighter vehicles generally have a shorter stopping distance and hit pedestrians less.
      - frumper 3y ago
        The vehicle stopping distances are generally close enough that the only things that will matter in a practical sense is the reaction time of the driver and the condition of the vehicles. From 60mph to 0 in a Toyota Camry is 122 feet, and an F150 is 129 feet. The age of your tires/brakes blow away that 7 feet of difference.
ilyt 3y ago
> We need some regulation to only allow vehicles over a certain size to be commercial only. Just treat them exactly the same, emission standards and all, as cars, and the problem will quickly solve itself
dontupvoteme 3y ago
>You also make trucks that regular people don't need but buy anyway, and make our streets less safe. This is a race to the bottom effect. Those old simpsons jokes revealed a sad truth of our american car based society - If you want a bigger chance of surviving an accident, you want you and your loved ones in a bigger car. Here in Europe you rarely get to speeds where you can even get a bruise in an accident, but in the unused stretches of the autobahn, it can be pretty terrifying. Not as terrifying as driving 70mph in Florida as teenagers pass at 120 and a granny is driving 40 though.
- beezlewax 3y ago
  In the cities in Europe maybe theres mo major speed. There are plenty of fatal accidents due to speeding or drunk driving on smaller roads though.
samwillis 3y ago
A solution is to tax vehicles based on the ratio of number of seats to weight, with a massive tax premium for massively heavy vehicles. Obviously at the moment (certainly here in the UK) there are loop holes when trucks and vans are "commercial vehicles" with different tax levels, many not used for commercial purposes. They need to be closed off, maybe include cargo volume in the equation so an oversized heavy pickup with little carrying capacity is penalised over a commercial van. We are also overdue ending significant tax breaks for electric vehicles. We have reached the point where we are over the hump needed to shift the market to EVs.
- metaphor 3y ago
  It sounds like the UK hasn't had its Chicken Tax[1] moment in history yet. A Chevy Suburban seats up to 9 and has a curb weight of ~6,000 lbs on the upper end. A Tesla Model 3 seats up to 5 and has a curb weight of ~3,800 lbs on the lower end. Take a wild guess which vehicle your proposition taxes favorably...something about unintended market consequences comes to mind. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
tyfon 3y ago
Here in Norway, anything that has an allowed total weight above 3500 kg is classified as a light truck and not a car, is limited to 80 km/h max speed and you need a different license to drive it (C1 instead of B). The C1 license training is much more extensive and costs a lot more. You also need to renew it every 5 years as it's really a "professional" license. I see the base F1 weighs 2900 kg without the driver. That leaves about 500 kg for other passengers and cargo, about the same as an ID.4 if you want to register it with a normal B license. But I am looking at their sales brochure here in Norway now and it is sold as a C1 vehicle which means it is also limited to 80 km/h max speed. Max speed is conveniently left out of all marketing material too! Kind of puts a limit to it. The ID.Buzz is selling quite well here to people who use them for work instead of shopping, making one of the versions (the cargo) the 7th most sold vehicle so far in 2023 [1]. The cybertruck I don't think will be legal at all here due to the lack of crumple zones to protect pedestrians. It was pulled from pre ordering quite some time ago. [1] https://elbilstatistikk.no/ https://elbilstatistikk.no/
- rascul 3y ago
  > I see the base F1 weighs 2900 kg without the driver I think your numbers are off. That's quite heavy.
  - rascul 3y ago
    Oh I misunderstood and F1 immediately meant Formula 1 car to me, and that was wrong.
- frumper 3y ago
  The ID.Buzz weights 3000kg, the base F150 weighs 2100kg. That's the truck that the OP is complaining about everyone in America buys to drive around in. The F150 Lightning isn't really available and is what I believe you're referring to at 2900kg.
  - tyfon 3y ago
    Yes, I was referring to the electric version. I forget that fossil vehicles are still sold en masse in other countries! The point was really that the F1 Lightning is not a vehicle for personal use, and for work the buzz is much better.
EdwardDiego 3y ago
The sad degradation of utes/trucks from vehicles designed for work, to vehicles designed to appeal to townies (in my country, large utes/trucks/suvs in the cities are derisively referred to as "<X> tractors" where X is a wealthy suburb like Merivale or Remuera), affects every vehicle manufacturer. It's consumer driven, I think - big utes/trucks/SUVs offer various psychological benefits to buyers... intimidation, intimations of a perceived masculinity, and a main driver, perceived safety. Even if your larger vehicle is far less safe for people you hit, and more likely to roll over in hard cornering. E.g., compare the 1980s Toyota Hilux in this classic advert[0] to the 2022 Hilux[1]. The front is notably bigger, the cabin higher, yet the ground clearance somehow lower. Notable exception: the new Suzuki Jimny Lite is specifically designed to be a minimalist capable off-roader. [2] [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqwnr2sza_o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqwnr2sza_o [1]: https://images.drive.com.au/driveau/image/upload/c_fill,f_auto,g_auto,h_540,q_auto:good,w_960/v1/cms/uploads/ssodrzvfbxdj5xm1fxyt https://images.drive.com.au/driveau/image/upload/c_fill,f_au... [2]: https://www.drive.com.au/reviews/2022-suzuki-jimny-lite-review/ https://www.drive.com.au/reviews/2022-suzuki-jimny-lite-revi...

wilg 3y ago

Why not regulate safety instead of size?

binarymax 3y ago
Dimensions are easier to quantify than safety.
bioemerl 3y ago
The two are roughly the same. A big truck is more deadly to smaller vehicles and we shouldn't make it unsafe to drive a regular sized car instead of one of these monstrously large trucks. You could regulate things like requiring stop gates on trucks like semi trucks have though, which would at least help.
- wilg 3y ago
  I just really want to see a detailed study or article that really focuses on the details of pickup safety versus other cars, with empirical data about the different factors, how and why they differ, and ways of mitigating them. Seems like an important input for regulators. There's a lot of anti-car handwaving in discussions like this that would be good to cut through (for everybody involved).
- mattnewton 3y ago
  This would leave the main problems of lower visibility and the higher mass creating a higher more dangerous impact for other cars and pedestrians.
alistairSH 3y ago
Physics dictates that mass has a significant impact on safety. Especially for people outside the big-ass truck.
- metaphor 3y ago
  That's a hard sell when the curb weight of a Tesla Model Y is identical to a Ford F-150 5.0L V8 SuperCab with 6.5-ft bed.
  - alistairSH 3y ago
    That’s fair. The Tesla is too heavy as well. [dreams about “fun” cars like my old 2200lb Miata]
    - wilg 3y ago
      "Too heavy" in some sense, but the engineering trade off is a pretty good one! Your average Tesla is about: - 1.9x as heavy as the Miata - 4.3x as energy efficient as the Miata - 1.7x faster acceleration vs Miata - 0.2x the emissions of the Miata on a typical power mix (0x on solar)
- tzs 3y ago
  > Physics dictates that mass has a significant impact on safety I suspect that once you have enough mass though then it is velocity that determines the impact on safety. Getting hit at 50 mph by a Ford F-150 that has a total mass (truck plus cargo) of 9000 pounds is not going to be much more harmful to a pedestrian than getting hit by a similar shaped truck at the same speed that has half that mass. Similarly on the other end if velocity is low enough mass won't matter. Consider for example getting hit by a freight train at 1 mph. Unless the collision knocks you over and you fall under the train it probably won't be fatal (and likely won't even injure you). Even though that freight train would have 300 times the momentum and 6 times the kinetic energy of the 50 mph 9000 pound truck it would be fine.
  - alistairSH 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rootusrootus 3y ago
Because it's less about facts and more about moralizing.
disco_framework 3y ago
Honestly why not both? The length of these things only can be an issue when it comes to parking lots.
thsksbd 3y ago
Safety is why vehicles have gotten so big. In a collision, all else being equal, you always want to be in the bigger car. Its literally grade 10 physics. But we can have our cake and eat it too. Safer, environmentally sound vehicles and as big as we want them.... by simply lowering and enforcing speed limits.

jlmn 3y ago

> "I don't make trucks like that," Farley said. "I make trucks for real people who do real work, and that's a different kind of truck." "I don't make trucks regular people want... I make trucks for people who want to spend lots of money" – a more accurate statement, I think. Also amusing coming from the CEO of a brand who's electric truck starts at $60,000 for a "work truck" with vinyl seats, and climbs to nearly $100,000. Sounds pretty "Silicon Valley" to me, at least as far as price is concerned.

aobdev 3y ago
> at least as far as price is concerned There is a significant portion of the USA that will take on 84 month loans, make negative-equity trade-ins, or refinance their homes if it means they can get a new truck.
FireBeyond 3y ago
> Also amusing coming from the CEO of a brand who's electric truck starts at $60,000 for a "work truck" with vinyl seats, and climbs to nearly $100,000 Agreed, but if anyone thinks the CyberTruck is coming out at $39K like Elon originally promised, I have a bridge to sell you.
- ohgodplsno 3y ago
  If anyone thinks the CyberTruck is coming out, I'll sell you the land for that bridge.
  - wilg 3y ago
    It's all but guaranteed to come out, I think, probably this year, depending on how you define "come out".
  - miohtama 3y ago
    But when it comes out it will sell like ice-cream in Hell, despite how bad or expensive it is.
  - taway1874 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

subsubzero 3y ago

before the Obama administrations emissions rules[1] trucks and suv's were quite small, blame the rules put out in that ruling for why trucks and suvs are so gigantic, I too am frustrated with how big they are and I own a new truck! [1] - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-emissions-suvs-size-explainer/explainer-how-u-s-emissions-rules-encourage-larger-suvs-and-trucks-idUSKBN21D1KK https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-emissions-suvs-size...

rootusrootus 3y ago
Trucks were plenty big before Obama. An F150 today is largely similar dimensionally to one from, say, 2005. But it's generally lighter than a comparable version from then.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  They are both larger and heavier than in 2005. This also reduces the efficiency requirements.
- subsubzero 3y ago
  For a few ones that have absolutely jumped in size, toyota (tundra, tacoma, also the 4runner). 4runners in the 90's were tiny! also a tacoma now feels almost bigger than a early 2000's Tundra which is insane.

FireBeyond 3y ago

> and make our streets less safe Agreed, but also, the Cybertruck seems like it is going to have very similar problems for safety. The blind spots are massive, for one.

the_third_wave 3y ago
I'd assume they´d ue some of that "cyber" technology to eradicate things like "blind spots" from a vehicle carrying the "cyber" moniker. Cameras on the outside provide imagery of whatever goes on in the "blind" areas which is then displayed on flexible screens attached to pillars and other "blind spot" generating infrastructure. Alternatively and cheaper, some type of projector is used to project the outside world on the interior.

thsksbd 3y ago

The F150 has an aluminum chassis and some configurations weighs less than the lightest Tesla S.

xyzelement 3y ago

The idea that trucks are dangerous and unnecessary is pretty prevalent on HN, and I can follow the physics argument but the same argument can apply to anything (a bicycle is more dangerous than a pedestrian) Are there stats that show that these trucks cause a social problem worthy of regulation, or do we just not like the archetypical truck guy?

nonethewiser 3y ago
Its also safer for the same reason
staplor 3y ago
> The authors find that being hit by a 1,000-pound heavier vehicle results in a 47 percent increase in the baseline probability of being killed in the accident https://www.nber.org/digest/nov11/vehicle-weight-and-automotive-fatalities https://www.nber.org/digest/nov11/vehicle-weight-and-automot...
- akomtu 3y ago
  What's the rate of such collisions for trucks and sedans?
  - staplor 3y ago
    The linked article just looked at collisions that happened and compared danger by vehicle weight. If I had to guess, I would assume lighter vehicles generally have a shorter stopping distance and hit pedestrians less.
    - frumper 3y ago
      The vehicle stopping distances are generally close enough that the only things that will matter in a practical sense is the reaction time of the driver and the condition of the vehicles. From 60mph to 0 in a Toyota Camry is 122 feet, and an F150 is 129 feet. The age of your tires/brakes blow away that 7 feet of difference.

ilyt 3y ago

> We need some regulation to only allow vehicles over a certain size to be commercial only. Just treat them exactly the same, emission standards and all, as cars, and the problem will quickly solve itself

dontupvoteme 3y ago

>You also make trucks that regular people don't need but buy anyway, and make our streets less safe. This is a race to the bottom effect. Those old simpsons jokes revealed a sad truth of our american car based society - If you want a bigger chance of surviving an accident, you want you and your loved ones in a bigger car. Here in Europe you rarely get to speeds where you can even get a bruise in an accident, but in the unused stretches of the autobahn, it can be pretty terrifying. Not as terrifying as driving 70mph in Florida as teenagers pass at 120 and a granny is driving 40 though.

beezlewax 3y ago
In the cities in Europe maybe theres mo major speed. There are plenty of fatal accidents due to speeding or drunk driving on smaller roads though.

samwillis 3y ago

A solution is to tax vehicles based on the ratio of number of seats to weight, with a massive tax premium for massively heavy vehicles. Obviously at the moment (certainly here in the UK) there are loop holes when trucks and vans are "commercial vehicles" with different tax levels, many not used for commercial purposes. They need to be closed off, maybe include cargo volume in the equation so an oversized heavy pickup with little carrying capacity is penalised over a commercial van. We are also overdue ending significant tax breaks for electric vehicles. We have reached the point where we are over the hump needed to shift the market to EVs.

metaphor 3y ago
It sounds like the UK hasn't had its Chicken Tax[1] moment in history yet. A Chevy Suburban seats up to 9 and has a curb weight of ~6,000 lbs on the upper end. A Tesla Model 3 seats up to 5 and has a curb weight of ~3,800 lbs on the lower end. Take a wild guess which vehicle your proposition taxes favorably...something about unintended market consequences comes to mind. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

tyfon 3y ago

Here in Norway, anything that has an allowed total weight above 3500 kg is classified as a light truck and not a car, is limited to 80 km/h max speed and you need a different license to drive it (C1 instead of B). The C1 license training is much more extensive and costs a lot more. You also need to renew it every 5 years as it's really a "professional" license. I see the base F1 weighs 2900 kg without the driver. That leaves about 500 kg for other passengers and cargo, about the same as an ID.4 if you want to register it with a normal B license. But I am looking at their sales brochure here in Norway now and it is sold as a C1 vehicle which means it is also limited to 80 km/h max speed. Max speed is conveniently left out of all marketing material too! Kind of puts a limit to it. The ID.Buzz is selling quite well here to people who use them for work instead of shopping, making one of the versions (the cargo) the 7th most sold vehicle so far in 2023 [1]. The cybertruck I don't think will be legal at all here due to the lack of crumple zones to protect pedestrians. It was pulled from pre ordering quite some time ago. [1] https://elbilstatistikk.no/ https://elbilstatistikk.no/

rascul 3y ago
> I see the base F1 weighs 2900 kg without the driver I think your numbers are off. That's quite heavy.
- rascul 3y ago
  Oh I misunderstood and F1 immediately meant Formula 1 car to me, and that was wrong.
frumper 3y ago
The ID.Buzz weights 3000kg, the base F150 weighs 2100kg. That's the truck that the OP is complaining about everyone in America buys to drive around in. The F150 Lightning isn't really available and is what I believe you're referring to at 2900kg.
- tyfon 3y ago
  Yes, I was referring to the electric version. I forget that fossil vehicles are still sold en masse in other countries! The point was really that the F1 Lightning is not a vehicle for personal use, and for work the buzz is much better.

EdwardDiego 3y ago

The sad degradation of utes/trucks from vehicles designed for work, to vehicles designed to appeal to townies (in my country, large utes/trucks/suvs in the cities are derisively referred to as "<X> tractors" where X is a wealthy suburb like Merivale or Remuera), affects every vehicle manufacturer. It's consumer driven, I think - big utes/trucks/SUVs offer various psychological benefits to buyers... intimidation, intimations of a perceived masculinity, and a main driver, perceived safety. Even if your larger vehicle is far less safe for people you hit, and more likely to roll over in hard cornering. E.g., compare the 1980s Toyota Hilux in this classic advert[0] to the 2022 Hilux[1]. The front is notably bigger, the cabin higher, yet the ground clearance somehow lower. Notable exception: the new Suzuki Jimny Lite is specifically designed to be a minimalist capable off-roader. [2] [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqwnr2sza_o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqwnr2sza_o [1]: https://images.drive.com.au/driveau/image/upload/c_fill,f_auto,g_auto,h_540,q_auto:good,w_960/v1/cms/uploads/ssodrzvfbxdj5xm1fxyt https://images.drive.com.au/driveau/image/upload/c_fill,f_au... [2]: https://www.drive.com.au/reviews/2022-suzuki-jimny-lite-review/ https://www.drive.com.au/reviews/2022-suzuki-jimny-lite-revi...