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Money is the megaphone of identity (2020)
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- vaidhy 3y agoIn US, I feel like I am always in phase 1. While I am very well in the top 5% in terms of wealth, I also feel I am only one serious illness away from bankruptcy and that is stressing me out. If comfortable retirement (living a middle class life) is only available to people with a multi-million dollar retirement fund, I see no purpose in even aiming for a retirement in US.
- asjfka 3y agoTBH There is something indecent in being wealthier than 95% of population and still worrying about oneself. I think I'll puke.
- zo1 3y agoHaving interacted with "poor" people recently way more than I have in the past. I realized that one very quickly adapts and forgets that life below a certain level of "income" is indeed possible. It's made me look at all the places in my life where all that "money" is being sucked away from me. Silly examples like that convenient 4$ Starbucks coffee on the way to work, or at the ground floor of your office building. It's easy, simple, delicious, and just a tap of a card to get. But poor people aren't able to do this, heck, they forego such things and simply drink water. Apply this kind of thing to a myriad of things that happen daily (and monthly as they come off your bank account).
- JohnFen 3y ago> I see no purpose in even aiming for a retirement in US. Welcome to the sad club. Retirement age is within sight for me and my friends, and most of my circle is not in a position to be able to retire.
- acover 3y agoWhat is retirement age to you? 65?
- nradov 3y agoFull US Social Security retirement age is 67. That might be raised again by the time that younger people become eligible.
- vuln 3y agoHell they tell me straight up I’ll only ever get a maximum of 80% of what I put in. I’m sure that percentage will be reduced in the next 40 years…
- jxramos 3y agothere was a financial advisor at Apple who gave talks to employees and iirc they did mention that they used a rough percentage for advising clients with for what to expect from Social Security. It may have been 2/3 or 3/4 or 70%. I don't think it was as high as 80.
- lotsofpulp 3y agoSocial security benefits can be devalued in many ways. Expect future governments to: 1) increase retirement age 2) reduce purchasing power of money (print/issue/lend out excess money, resulting in inflation) 3) adjust “bend” points in SS benefit formula, making it more and more of a marginal income tax
- Buttons840 3y agoCall me a pessimist, but I wouldn't be surprised if in the coming years Social Security age is increased while life expectancy declines.
- Alupis 3y ago
- spondylosaurus 3y agoMaybe not much consolation, but even crummy health insurance plans have yearly limits where you'd "only" ever have to pay, like, twenty grand a year out of pocket on medical expenses. Significantly lower for better plans, of course. ... Assuming your plan is willing to cover the remaining expenses in the first place. (Yeah, it's not an irrational fear :P)
- vaidhy 3y agoI also just learnt that Medicaid can place a lien on your house in some cases. Maybe, the solution is to move out of US, but that is equally difficult with an Indian passport.
- raincom 3y agoThere are ways to protect your home from such liens. Enter medicaid asset protection trusts.
- vuln 3y agoFlorida has the Homestead act to prevent this.
- mariojv 3y agoIANAL but Texas also has homestead laws that prevent creditors from seizing your primary residence: https://www.findlaw.com/state/texas-law/texas-homestead-law-overview.html#:~:text=State%20homestead%20protection%20laws%20help,pre%2Dexisting%20mortgage%20or%20lien https://www.findlaw.com/state/texas-law/texas-homestead-law-.... Not sure how that would apply with something like Medicaid
- ridgeguy 3y agoIn California, having your assets (home included) in a living trust shields those assets from Medicaid/Medical lookback forfeiture. [1] A living trust is a good idea for other reasons as well. [1] https://www.medicaidplanningassistance.org/asset-protection-trusts/ https://www.medicaidplanningassistance.org/asset-protection-...
- nwiswell 3y ago> I am only one serious illness away from bankruptcy and that is stressing me out Well, you're only one serious illness away from death. I'm not trying to be flippant here; there are more things that can properly kill you rather than just make you seriously ill and bankrupt you, provided your health insurance is decent. I do want to emphatically underscore that this isn't an endorsement of the system. It's just that if you're worried about almost dying and you're not worried about actually dying, you're probably miscalibrated. The best we can do is minimize the risk of Really Bad Outcomes. No one, no matter how rich, can avoid them altogether. All of us are gonna die.
- Retric 3y agoIMO, a great number of things are worse than death because dead me can’t suffer while live me can. Death isn’t unpleasant, it’s a bad outcome for me only in that it prevents the pleasure of living well. My death is a concern for those who care for or are dependent on me, but so is my incapacity and suffering.
- nwiswell 3y ago"Bankruptcy is literally worse than death" is a new one for me, gotta be honest. If you really feel that way, there's always the emergency exit.
- Arainach 3y agoIn some important ways it absolutely can be, and the emergency exit doesn't help. If I die, life insurance pays out. If I commit suicide, it doesn't. If I die, there are some basic optional-but-socially-mandatory costs around disposal of the corpse and a memorial ceremony. Those are fixed and measured in thousands, not tens or hundreds of thousands. My property and assets pass to my heirs. They are grieving but financially secure. Prolonged illness can sap my reserves dry and drain me of wealth in a manner matched only by the retirement home industry. My family can watch me suffer and wilt away while watching their potential financial security drip through a hose into my veins.
- IAmGraydon 3y agoIf you’re in the top 5% of wealth in the US, you already have over $1M net worth. How do you believe that a serious illness could wipe you out? Are you insured? Unless you’re pretty close to retirement already, turning your $1M into $2M is pretty easy in 10 years with smart investing and average returns. It becomes $3M in less than 15 years. You should be on autopilot to a multimillion retirement if you’re in the top 5%.
- vaidhy 3y agoI am close to 50.. My point is that I still have to survive and work for next 15 years and nowhere close to be doing things that I am passionate about (but not income earning) even though I am in the top 5%.
- trallnag 3y agoYou are doing something wrong. I'm close to 30 with a tenth of your wealth and a disability that is quite limiting to me, yet I never had the feeling that I'm living to just survive. Shouldn't you be in a position to make your work enjoyable?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- VinLucero 3y agoLove this and wish I had written it about my own journey.
- glonq 3y agoMy dad took our family through a rags-to-riches-to-rags arc, so for me... (1) I never want be in 'rags' again (2) I never take for granted what I've got (3) I'm guilty of having a 'scarcity mentality' (quick to save, slow to spend or share).
- throwaway2037 3y agoYour list sounds good. #3 is important to have a savings / investing mindset. Don't lose it. It will help you to slowly grind to a multi-millionaire in your 50s with diligent saving and investing. Real question: What was the emotional impact of the "way back down" (riches-to-rags)? Can you share any anecdotes of things that stay with you?
- glonq 3y agoHmm, I'm 51 next week and those multi-millions aren't quite in my grasp yet. But I live happy and comfy, which is great considering that many people don't/can't. We were truly never rags to proper riches, but... - initial "rags" was moving around between shitty towns a lot, changing schools and losing friends, occasional homelessness, occasional food scarcity, and having no role models for sustainable lifestyle, job, and economic practices. - "riches" was living in (renting) a nice house with a pool in a nice upper-middle class neighborhood and attending a good private school. and having a slick-ass 386sx PC with ATI VGA Wonder and Soundblaster Pro ;) I was in college when the house of cards came falling down, so it meant trying to stand on my own two feet while my dad lost his house and got incarcerated and my little sisters had to work at walmart and apply for welfare. I had to take care of my mom at the same time that I was getting married and starting a family. It was a very humbling experience. What stayed with me? Humility. Empathy for people who are less fortunate. A disdain for unrestrained capitalism, and sympathy for its victims. A strong work ethic. An aversion for taking financial risks.
- throwaway2037 3y ago+9000. This is a great post. I like how you are realistic about "rags" vs "riches". Cool. Please post more!
- WWLink 3y agoThis sounds like some kinda CEO "You should love your job and strive to do a job you'd do for free!" "It's not about the money!" propaganda nonsense written by some asshole CEO trying to defend their subpar wages lol. Edit: OMG LOL the predator/parasite "stop villainizing rich people" image.
- mensetmanusman 3y agoIf you make $40k you are in the top 1% of the world income.
- johnla 3y agoYes, it's good to keep a good perspective by thinking our position relative to the world but relative to our surroundings and cost of living too. Probably living the US, we're near the top for expenditures/costs too.
- JohnFen 3y agoBut to be meaningful, you have to scale that according to the cost of living where you are.
- mensetmanusman 3y agoNot necessarily, because other locations that have lower cost of living may also have services lacking like average bandwidth, electricity outage rate, food security, political instability, etc.~ can't ignore the hidden costs.
- JohnFen 3y agoThose hidden costs are part of the cost of living, no? Just in the US, though, I think it's hard to argue that a person making $200k/yr in New York City is meaningfully making more than a person making $50k/yr South Bend, Indiana.
- naniwaduni 3y agoCost of living broadly scales with quality of life.
- JohnFen 3y agoNot really, at least in the US.
- MuffinFlavored 3y ago
- johnla 3y agoI love this essay.
- Animats 3y agoThis is a well established idea. See Precariat.[1] "... existing without predictability or security, affecting material or psychological welfare. Unlike the proletariat class of industrial workers in the 20th century who lacked their own means of production and hence sold their labor to live, members of the precariat are only partially involved in labor and must undertake extensive unremunerated activities that are essential if they are to retain access to jobs and to decent earnings. Classic examples of such unpaid activities include continually having to search for work (including preparing for and attending job interviews), as well as being expected to be perpetually responsive to calls for "gig" work (yet without being paid an actual wage for being "on call")." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precariat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precariat
- blueyes 3y agoI would have put it another way: Money amplifies personality, both virtues and vices. The reason why the rich so often seem absurd is because, unlike most people, they can live out their impulses. Money reveals who they are. Many people without money are probably equally absurd, but they have not crossed the horizon of "doing weird things because they can afford it."
- JohnFen 3y agoThe first time my business partner and I made a significant sum of money, he expressed surprise at how I dealt with it. He said that in his years, he's seen lots of people gain a sudden amount of significant wealth and, every time, they go a little crazy. Or, worse, they turn into assholes or become self-destructive. He said that I was the only person he'd seen who literally didn't change at all. I told him it's because I've never hidden my crazy.
- throwaway2037 3y agoNice post. So what is "your crazy"?
- PedroBatista 3y agoThe same goes the other way around, many of these "chill do-gooders" and gurus of life are that because the can afford to be. Put them 5 years working 2 minimum wage jobs and barely making rent every month and you'll see an very different person, saying and doing the same things every other person under the same circumstances says and does.
- hotpotamus 3y agoI thought it was a cliché that the difference between crazy and eccentric is money.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- imgabe 3y agoMy favorite example of this is that Mark Wahlberg has a chain of restaurants called Wahlburgers. You know that had to start as a drunken joke that most people just wouldn't have the ability to make a reality.
- mattgreenrocks 3y ago> Many parents believe that working hard and making money is how they express their love for their children, but miss the fact that their children may not see it the same way. Seems to be a bit of a meme these days for parents (usually dads) to talk of “building intergenerational wealth,” often as a euphemism to being a workaholic. It’s pretty gross because it attempts to paint their own vice/not showing up as virtuous on a larger timescale. And they know this, which is why they cast it in some grand terms in a performative manner. TBF, not every use is about this. But I keep seeing it crop up.
- NotYourLawyer 3y agoIntergenerational wealth is a fool’s errand anyway. The first (or maybe second) generation that didn’t work for it is just gonna squander it.
- mattgreenrocks 3y agoYep. Plus end of life care is designed to devour your estate. And it is getting more expensive.
- kwere 3y agoeuthanasy when one stops on being selfsufficient is the last gift to your own family, insteads of sqaundering hundreds of grands to keep the heartbeat going.
- cscurmudgeon 3y agoOr society is going to take it as seen in a lot of countries.
- NotYourLawyer 3y agoHey we just want you to pay your fair share! On top of the sales tax people paid when they bought your employer’s products, the payroll tax your employer paid, the income tax you paid, the sales tax you pay when you buy anything, and the inheritance tax you’ll pay when you die. Why are you so greedy? Just pay your fair share.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- hellyer 3y agoOk he's listening is the megaphone of @google mocking a suicide inb4 reddit celebrate under Ashooh Filed under: Openly flaunting psychological warfare at scale coordinated between big tech entities. Unaccountable malice, should be felony conspiracies/racketeering. Pichai and others should be indicted for agreeing to the secret gag orders by DoD via Schmidt instead of resigning. This was going on before Obama's administration, but Obama signed an order for big tech to perform behavior control experiments at scale.. Google targeted a newly wealthy person by abusing the trauma of a suicide.
- klntsky 3y agoI doubt the super rich are afraid of "losing it all", as the author claims. They can simply put aside a certain percentage of money and not risk it. And they have access to financial instruments that allow to control risks better.
- thriftwy 3y agoSounds like a poor man's reinvention of Maslow's pyramid, with fewer levels.
- qingcharles 3y agoAs someone who previously made millions of dollars and is now reduced to a single broken suitcase[*] for all his possessions and is homeless, living in a sleeping bag, this article resonates with me. I help a lot of other homeless people and it is very, very hard to totally reboot your life when all you have in the world is the one set of dirty clothes on your back. [*] it was a wheelie suitcase I found, but I wore the wheels completely off it carrying cans of food from the food pantries for everyone.
- mysterydip 3y agoJust curious but where did the millions go? I assume a split between assets and consumables (food, drink, events/experiences).
- qingcharles 3y agoThe first millions I made from Beanie Babies in the mid-90s. The second was from running a TV torrent site. I recklessly spent pretty much everything both times and didn't really save anything. I had a lot of nice things, but then I ended up in jail and when I got out I had literally zero. Well, I had a COVID stimulus check and that was it. Then I went back to jail again and got reset to full zero.
- mysterydip 3y agoThanks for sharing, I appreciate the insight
- qingcharles 3y agoThis was me: https://torrentfreak.com/major-tv-torrent-site-thebox-bz-calls-it-quits-130829/ https://torrentfreak.com/major-tv-torrent-site-thebox-bz-cal...
- Ecoste 3y agoHow did that happen, if you don't mind me asking?
- apsurd 3y agoInteresting blog. The article is a good reminder of common introspections on money. I like the points on freedom: "freedom-as-leisure (vacations)", "freedom in work", and "freedom in attention". TLDR: what is wealth _really_? probably it's freedom in attention. But there is some baseline survival threshold to get to, and that's much lower than people may realize. Anyway, some constructive feedback if the author comes across this discussion: 1) The post is sooooooo long. I appreciate long-form content - I love Atlantic articles - so it doesn't have to be a 30 second TikTok clip, I just think it can be tightened up. A lot. 2) The illustrations lack their own context enough to be understood on their own. It's mildly annoying to look at them and have no clue what they express unless you read the before and after paragraphs. Consider adding enough context for them be self-contained. That said, I appreciate your labor and signed up for your newsletter!
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- pixel3234 3y ago> freedom money can buy as it relates to your work. > power of money resides in its ability to provide a better life for our families. I really hate this mentality, it sees money as power to buy freedom and eventually to "buy family". For me the key is to minimize expenses to some reasonable minimum. It does not matter how much I make, it does not affect my lifestyle much. Maybe I would buy a nicer laptop. I gave up on being slave to money long time ago. That includes being a slave to family! I am open to serious relationship, but most people think I am cheap bum. I have no reason to change their opinions!
- burnished 3y agoYour position seems a little hypocritical? Your life style wouldn't be possible without other people valuing community - nothing wrong with it or for pointing out other ways of living, but you are coming off as kind of hostile towards a structure you depend on and it bothers me.
- majormajor 3y agoI don't see so much disagreement. You still "bought freedom" by reducing your expenses past the point where you're precarious financially. > It does not matter how much I make, it does not affect my lifestyle much. One fifth your current level? One tenth? One hundredth? Or, if living mostly off of savings... well, that's even more explicitly having used money to "buy freedom".
- pixel3234 3y agoLook into article, it is all Phase 1, Phase 2.... like an elevator. And absolute top is helping community like proper tradcon. It does not even count with possibility, that people do not really care about such things. There is no basic reasoning about "should we do it"? Usual endgame is to settle down with bad partner. I like hiking and traveling. I am always in climate that has nice temperatures, usually near sea. Sometimes I sleep on beach, sometimes in hotel. All via super cheap deals (you get very good at that over time). If I would have less money, I would probably live healthier lifestyle. I would cut alcohol and meat, eat more veggies. I would also take long term lease, make some friends, that is another win for mental health.
- ricardobayes 3y agoThis is extremely eye-opening.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- j7ake 3y agoThis is a very USA centric view. In many European countries, freedom of attention is attained by having strong social support (eg free day care, education, health care, quality food, strong employment and tenant laws). Many people in Europe live without thinking about money 24/7 but are in absolute terms less rich than high paid people in nyc and sf.
- carlosjobim 3y agoPeople in Europe will plan their life around best exploiting government monetary benefits, so I'm not sure if I can really agree with your point. From things like deciding what month to get pregnant in order to maximize some welfare benefit, to entire businesses specializing in getting corporate welfare instead of actually producing anything, to farmers growing stuff they have no need for in order to get over a square meter threshold to increase their subsidy. I've had the misfortune of listening to hours upon hours of these boring conversations, with everyday people giving each other tips to get as much as possible from the government. Wether it's a financial benefit or the benefit of getting more days to stay at home on your couch and watch TV. Give me the American flavor of greed any day. At least some great ideas and some great stories come from it.
- nuancebydefault 3y agoI live and work in Europe, even in a country with one of the best corporate and government wellfare. It is true that a lot of people think about how to exploit the system regularly. That said, i am not one of them (at least not for a big amount), and a lot of people really enjoy being more relaxed about the possibility of getting ill or loosing a job, without fear of bankruptcy. This while liking their job and putting a lot of effort doing it well. So i guess some bias kicked in by having been surrounded by people of the former type...
- jxramos 3y agothat would be great to actually turn into an investigative documentary in video format. I'd be curious to get a taste of experiencing what you experienced.
- RigelKentaurus 3y agoPoignant essay. I was in the author's shoes twenty-five years ago. I was an immigrant from India in my early twenties searching for a job in San Jose. At one point, I had $7 in the bank and had to live in my hatchback for a few days. One of my strongest memories is finally finding a job and resolving never to be in that situation again. I learned all I could about investing, budgeting and saving. Now in my mid-forties, my wife and I can retire if we want to. Turns out my fear of poverty and homelessness, rather than any positive thoughts on how money can be an enabler, has been my biggest motivator.
- 11235813213455 3y agoMoney (spent) is the measure of someone's pollution footprint
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y agoMy electricity provider has a program which accepts voluntary additions to my bill to fund projects for creating wind and solar farms (among other things). As far as I know, this is the single most valuable thing I can do with my money with respect to reducing my carbon footprint. It’s not precisely a bad heuristic that buying many things is wasteful (as I assume this comment intends to argue) but “throwing things away” is the measure, rather than “spending money”.
- 11235813213455 3y agoWhat you're saying is a bit like offsetting your footprint. Ideally we should rather have very low consumption. Partly agreed on throing away, a car is not thrown away frequently, even if it's an EV, it has a large footprint from its maintenance and all the services and infrastrictures dedicated to cars, 25% of our cities space. Same for a swimming pool, for a tourism boat, planes etc..
- tjmc 3y agoWhat if you spend your money on solar panels? We produce twice as much power as we consume
- 11235813213455 3y agoIt's better to consume very few electricity, produced from nuclear for example, than setting up solar energy (with a significant loss on conversion and a footprint in materials, as well as nuclear plants, but what I mean is it's more our lifestyle that matters rather than the solutions themselves Indirectly consuming few electricity means you've few devices which also have a number of footprints, so it's quite a large gain The only counter example to what I said is maybe buying land to convert it to a food forest / permaculture, and save it from another guy building a villa with swimming pool