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School choice is controversial because it is associated with right wing attempts to undermine public schools and, among other things, teacher's unions. In fact,

School choice is controversial because it is associated with right wing attempts to undermine public schools and, among other things, teacher's unions. In fact, the school choice movement as we know it goes back to desegregation in the south: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/27/school-choice-developed-way-protect-segregation-abolish-public-schools/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/27/school-cho.... That is just one article about it, but someone close to me was involved in the original litigation on the subject. It was not uncommon in the south for districts to close public schools and almost literally give public land and equipment from those schools to private schools which could more easily remain segregated. There are other dimensions to school choice as well. In particular, some parents would prefer to "insulate" their children from information about sexuality or uncomfortable truths about american history. And, I admit, public schools often are struggling to teach, so its not entirely black and white. But school choice is politically fraught. But many people see it as the standard republican strategy: first, starve public services of funding, then claim that they are bad, and then get rid of them.

clnq 3y ago
I come from a Nordic country, where many things are different from the US. When I was a kid, I could choose what public school I wanted to go to. I'm trying to understand the situation you describe better. First of all, are kids not free to choose which public school they will attend in the US? If so, is that by law? Do any US states allow a choice of public schools? If not, why not? Also, school curriculums were standardized where I was a kid, so there wasn't ever the problem of creating siloed "thought" schools. Isn't school curriculum standardized in the US? This was such a non-problem in my experience, I am honestly a bit surprised how controversial it is. It would be great if anyone gave more context, as that article relies on quite a lot of US life experience.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  America funds public education locally, so you are limited to public schools that you can attend by what schools are being funded by your property taxes. Some districts setup public choice schools in their districts, especially if the districts are large (e.g. Seattle, my son goes to an area choice school). Some states will also provide more equity to school districts (Washington state shifts education funding to east of the mountains from much richer Seattle area school districts), but in general you still aren't allowed to attend schools outside of your district without some kind of exception. Education is also governed largely locally with a few state/federal standards in the background that are often not seen as a good thing (e.g. Bush's No Child Left Behind).
  - clnq 3y ago
    Thank you for the context. It's interesting that NCLB is seen in negative light, it is similar to what I had as a kid. It seems to be one of those things that was fundamentally good-spirited but corrupted. I think it could have been done well. It shouldn't cast doubt on standards in education. Or maybe it was a failure. It would be interesting to know how education changed when NCLB was introduced and how many people liked it vs how many disliked the change.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Criticism on NCLB is basically criticism on standardized testing. Higher performing schools are going to opt out anyways (they would rather focus their kids on prep for college), lower performing schools focus on the tests with hyper focus to the expense of everything else.
    - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
      Most of the belly-aching about NCLB that you'll hear comes from relatively affluent people (who are disproportionately represented on this site, since it's a forum for people in a relatively high-paying field), because it required school districts to focus disproportionately on getting closer to average outcomes for the worst performing students, rather than letting the best performing students excel even further. For example, if your school district had 2 high schools, one that was extremely high achieving to the point that anything short of a perfect score on standardized test was considered a moral failing, and the other that was struggling to keep the school average at the state/national average, the school district, in order to get more funding from the fed, would need to spend as much as possible on the lower achieving school. Secondary things, like a new pool, or new buildings, or in some cases basic renovations would be denied to the higher achieving school, because they still had a far way to fall before they represented a failure of the school district.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        > if your school district had 2 high schools, one that was extremely high achieving to the point that anything short of a perfect score on standardized test was considered a moral failing That would never really happen though. The poor high school is very likely to be in a completely different school district with a completely separate local funding source. Rich schools mostly complained about having to prep students for NCLB when they were also prepping them for AP exams and otherwise helping getting their students into an Ivy league.
- nathan_compton 3y ago
  The main thing to be aware of is charter schools and school vouchers. The latter literally diverts public funds to parents who want to send their kids to private schools. Charter schools are more subtle. They are privately run schools which often can work around regulations which restrict public schools (for example, they may not have to hire union teachers). There are de jure rules to make sure that these schools are accessible to everyone in the community, but often there are informal methods by which these schools end up being just for white students (for instance, the administration will wait until the school choice period is over and then selectively eject non-white kids).
  - gemstones 3y ago
    I’m otherwise liberal, but I am sorely tempted to vote for anyone who expands school vouchers in my area - that idea sounds amazing.
    - nathan_compton 3y ago
      Well, good news! Vouchers are, basically, a liberal policy. You'd vote against it if you were a socialist but you can keep your lib credentials and still favor vouchers. Politics aside, you should check to see if they are available in your area. They are often only for people below a certain income level, however.

clnq 3y ago

I come from a Nordic country, where many things are different from the US. When I was a kid, I could choose what public school I wanted to go to. I'm trying to understand the situation you describe better. First of all, are kids not free to choose which public school they will attend in the US? If so, is that by law? Do any US states allow a choice of public schools? If not, why not? Also, school curriculums were standardized where I was a kid, so there wasn't ever the problem of creating siloed "thought" schools. Isn't school curriculum standardized in the US? This was such a non-problem in my experience, I am honestly a bit surprised how controversial it is. It would be great if anyone gave more context, as that article relies on quite a lot of US life experience.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
America funds public education locally, so you are limited to public schools that you can attend by what schools are being funded by your property taxes. Some districts setup public choice schools in their districts, especially if the districts are large (e.g. Seattle, my son goes to an area choice school). Some states will also provide more equity to school districts (Washington state shifts education funding to east of the mountains from much richer Seattle area school districts), but in general you still aren't allowed to attend schools outside of your district without some kind of exception. Education is also governed largely locally with a few state/federal standards in the background that are often not seen as a good thing (e.g. Bush's No Child Left Behind).
- clnq 3y ago
  Thank you for the context. It's interesting that NCLB is seen in negative light, it is similar to what I had as a kid. It seems to be one of those things that was fundamentally good-spirited but corrupted. I think it could have been done well. It shouldn't cast doubt on standards in education. Or maybe it was a failure. It would be interesting to know how education changed when NCLB was introduced and how many people liked it vs how many disliked the change.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Criticism on NCLB is basically criticism on standardized testing. Higher performing schools are going to opt out anyways (they would rather focus their kids on prep for college), lower performing schools focus on the tests with hyper focus to the expense of everything else.
  - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
    Most of the belly-aching about NCLB that you'll hear comes from relatively affluent people (who are disproportionately represented on this site, since it's a forum for people in a relatively high-paying field), because it required school districts to focus disproportionately on getting closer to average outcomes for the worst performing students, rather than letting the best performing students excel even further. For example, if your school district had 2 high schools, one that was extremely high achieving to the point that anything short of a perfect score on standardized test was considered a moral failing, and the other that was struggling to keep the school average at the state/national average, the school district, in order to get more funding from the fed, would need to spend as much as possible on the lower achieving school. Secondary things, like a new pool, or new buildings, or in some cases basic renovations would be denied to the higher achieving school, because they still had a far way to fall before they represented a failure of the school district.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      > if your school district had 2 high schools, one that was extremely high achieving to the point that anything short of a perfect score on standardized test was considered a moral failing That would never really happen though. The poor high school is very likely to be in a completely different school district with a completely separate local funding source. Rich schools mostly complained about having to prep students for NCLB when they were also prepping them for AP exams and otherwise helping getting their students into an Ivy league.
nathan_compton 3y ago
The main thing to be aware of is charter schools and school vouchers. The latter literally diverts public funds to parents who want to send their kids to private schools. Charter schools are more subtle. They are privately run schools which often can work around regulations which restrict public schools (for example, they may not have to hire union teachers). There are de jure rules to make sure that these schools are accessible to everyone in the community, but often there are informal methods by which these schools end up being just for white students (for instance, the administration will wait until the school choice period is over and then selectively eject non-white kids).
- gemstones 3y ago
  I’m otherwise liberal, but I am sorely tempted to vote for anyone who expands school vouchers in my area - that idea sounds amazing.
  - nathan_compton 3y ago
    Well, good news! Vouchers are, basically, a liberal policy. You'd vote against it if you were a socialist but you can keep your lib credentials and still favor vouchers. Politics aside, you should check to see if they are available in your area. They are often only for people below a certain income level, however.