7 ms·

>> OceanGate says it is an experimental vessel, and when CBS travelled onboard the correspondent had to sign a waiver accepting that it "has not been approved o

by ethbr0 3y ago

>> OceanGate says it is an experimental vessel, and when CBS travelled onboard the correspondent had to sign a waiver accepting that it "has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body, and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma or death". https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65960217 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65960217 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=29co_Hksk6o https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=29co_Hksk6o

metabagel 3y ago
When you get right down to it, the people who boarded this submersible on Sunday probably didn’t want to die. No matter what waiver they signed.
- chii 3y ago
  nobody wants to die ('cept for people looking to suicide). The waiver is an acknowledgement that what they're doing is dangerous, and could cause them to die. As an adult, you have the right to accept this risk, if the reward for doing so is worth it in your eyes. Unless, of course, if those signing the waivers were mislead.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Yes, but the waiver probably didn't say 'you have at least a 10% chance of dying'.
    - ethbr0 3y ago
      You're going almost 4000m underwater. What percent should it have said? 10%? 5%? 30%? 90%? Anything other than "We've tried to make it safe, but there's a lot higher than 0% chance of death" would seem a lie. People die climbing Everest regularly, and I don't see anyone claims the climbing industry is under-disclosing. Because these are inherently lethal activities, that a reasonable participant engages in despite knowing the risks.
      - kamaal 3y ago
        >>Because these are inherently lethal activities, that a reasonable participant engages in despite knowing the risks. One can as far as say they indulge in it for the 'kick' this sort of risk brings. The ordinary is boring for most of these people. They don't want to have fun the same some one making $90K/yr does.
      - giantg2 3y ago
        There's a difference between a well prepared Everest expedition and someone selling a submarine experience in a poorly designed craft. There is a difference between inherently dangerous activity and wanton stupidity.
      - bandrami 3y ago
        Actually there's a huge backlash to guided "adventure" tours bringing rich tourists who have zero business being above 7000m into the death zone. Everest was bad enough (it's at least not a technically difficult climb) but now they've expanded to K2, which is absolutely insane to send an amateur to.
CaptainZapp 3y ago
When I go scuba diving I also need to sign a waiver and acknowledge the inherent risk of the activity. It doesn't mean that the regulator provided by the dive center is McGivered with duct tape and chewing gum. Which seems like the equivalent of the construction and the components quality of that vessel.
- kamaal 3y ago
  I had a colleague who went scuba diving in Los Angeles. Newly wed. Husband and Wife, decide to spend their 4th of July weekend doing water sports. So they go scuba diving, the wife's mask breaks down, he comes up, she panics she doesn't. She died by drowning. He was totally broken, the wife knew the risks and he knew it too. Nevertheless he wanted her to try because he thought it was fun. He lived with the trauma for years. Probably now as well. People don't know how bad these things can get. This sort of fun, is definitely not worth anyones life. Just go sight seeing, and have Sundae at Ghirardelli. There are many safe ways of having fun, that don't involve death as a risk factor.
  - CaptainZapp 3y ago
    Was he just taking his wife down without training and certification? This just seems insane. While losing a mask or having it break down is very inconvenient that's exactly one of the scenarios you train for. Even when doing the Open Water certification one of the skills you must do to get certified is to remove your mask, put it on again and remove the water from it. > This sort of fun, is definitely not worth anyones life. I agree. And that's the exact reason why you train for extraordinary situations and get certified. Scuba diving is a safe sport as long you adhere to the rules and your personal limitations.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - otikik 3y ago
    Your story is probably incomplete. I am no scuba diving expert but I know people who do it regularly. You never do it alone. And you constantly check others in case they need help. There's a whole sign language around just checking status. And protocols for things like sharing oxygen etc.
giantg2 3y ago
I'm pretty sure you can't have people sign away your reasonable duty of care, only inherent risks.

by ethbr0 3y ago

metabagel 3y ago

When you get right down to it, the people who boarded this submersible on Sunday probably didn’t want to die. No matter what waiver they signed.

chii 3y ago
nobody wants to die ('cept for people looking to suicide). The waiver is an acknowledgement that what they're doing is dangerous, and could cause them to die. As an adult, you have the right to accept this risk, if the reward for doing so is worth it in your eyes. Unless, of course, if those signing the waivers were mislead.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Yes, but the waiver probably didn't say 'you have at least a 10% chance of dying'.
  - ethbr0 3y ago
    You're going almost 4000m underwater. What percent should it have said? 10%? 5%? 30%? 90%? Anything other than "We've tried to make it safe, but there's a lot higher than 0% chance of death" would seem a lie. People die climbing Everest regularly, and I don't see anyone claims the climbing industry is under-disclosing. Because these are inherently lethal activities, that a reasonable participant engages in despite knowing the risks.
    - kamaal 3y ago
      >>Because these are inherently lethal activities, that a reasonable participant engages in despite knowing the risks. One can as far as say they indulge in it for the 'kick' this sort of risk brings. The ordinary is boring for most of these people. They don't want to have fun the same some one making $90K/yr does.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      There's a difference between a well prepared Everest expedition and someone selling a submarine experience in a poorly designed craft. There is a difference between inherently dangerous activity and wanton stupidity.
    - bandrami 3y ago
      Actually there's a huge backlash to guided "adventure" tours bringing rich tourists who have zero business being above 7000m into the death zone. Everest was bad enough (it's at least not a technically difficult climb) but now they've expanded to K2, which is absolutely insane to send an amateur to.

CaptainZapp 3y ago

When I go scuba diving I also need to sign a waiver and acknowledge the inherent risk of the activity. It doesn't mean that the regulator provided by the dive center is McGivered with duct tape and chewing gum. Which seems like the equivalent of the construction and the components quality of that vessel.

kamaal 3y ago
I had a colleague who went scuba diving in Los Angeles. Newly wed. Husband and Wife, decide to spend their 4th of July weekend doing water sports. So they go scuba diving, the wife's mask breaks down, he comes up, she panics she doesn't. She died by drowning. He was totally broken, the wife knew the risks and he knew it too. Nevertheless he wanted her to try because he thought it was fun. He lived with the trauma for years. Probably now as well. People don't know how bad these things can get. This sort of fun, is definitely not worth anyones life. Just go sight seeing, and have Sundae at Ghirardelli. There are many safe ways of having fun, that don't involve death as a risk factor.
- CaptainZapp 3y ago
  Was he just taking his wife down without training and certification? This just seems insane. While losing a mask or having it break down is very inconvenient that's exactly one of the scenarios you train for. Even when doing the Open Water certification one of the skills you must do to get certified is to remove your mask, put it on again and remove the water from it. > This sort of fun, is definitely not worth anyones life. I agree. And that's the exact reason why you train for extraordinary situations and get certified. Scuba diving is a safe sport as long you adhere to the rules and your personal limitations.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- otikik 3y ago
  Your story is probably incomplete. I am no scuba diving expert but I know people who do it regularly. You never do it alone. And you constantly check others in case they need help. There's a whole sign language around just checking status. And protocols for things like sharing oxygen etc.

giantg2 3y ago

I'm pretty sure you can't have people sign away your reasonable duty of care, only inherent risks.