7 ms·

ASU: The New American University (2021)

102 points by jseliger 3y ago

bradfox2 3y ago
All partially funded by sweetheart lease deals between land ASU owns and billions of dollars in corporate office buildings and hotels thanks to the tax exempt status of the University. Status that is supposed to be used for educational purposes but instead is turning the ASU campus into a commercial property tax haven. https://tucson.com/news/local/arizona-ag-sues-to-block-universities-from-leasing-land-to-commercial-businesses/article_c1210c2f-da3f-5a35-9678-6aa10f2efb9a.html
- hakfoo 3y ago
  As someone who attended at the turn of the millenium, the entire area is unrecognizable now, with all the towers that have gone up where it used to be low-rise shops and restaurants servicing the student audience. Traffic's a mess and you can't park at the Chuckbox during the school year. OTOH, some of the new buildings did seem nice (the astronomy programme had an open day earlier this year) And yet, there's still no proper grocery store in orbit of the campus; there was a sketchy IGA back in the early 1990s, but they gradually drove all the tenants out of the strip mall, claiming it would eventually be built into a wildly-needed parking structure; instead they built a 25-story retirement home on campus. I feel like the weirdest angle on it is the entire Shady Park scuffle: they built the retirement tower largely during the pandemic, and people kvetched to the point of a legal dispute when the club across the street started having noisy concerts again. How do you have a large mainstream college WITHOUT things loud college bars nearby? What exactly did they expect?
  - farazbabar 3y ago
    Have you been around lately? There is a safeway on rural road (basically scottsdale rd in tempe).
  - russdill 3y ago
    Pour out a Big Juan with cheese for me, will ya?
    - lotsoweiners 3y ago
      Chuck box is getting internet famous now. I haven’t been there in well over a decade but I think I need to change that in the next few weeks.
  - SecondTimeAgain 3y ago
    Who doesn't miss catching MBA students doing coke in the bathroom at Rula Bula, I know I do.
  - browningstreet 3y ago
    I graduated from ASU in 1995. Tempe was a local’s community until the Chase development and SuperBowl XXX signaled what was to come. Sun Devil stadium is dwarfed by those giant glass buildings and the whole place feels mega- and apocalyptic.
nine_k 3y ago
«Most universities aspire towards offering a Michelin star experience to students, but what we actually need is a ‘fast casual’, Cheesecake Factory-like option that can provide an affordable, quality education to millions.»
pkrecker 3y ago
I studied CS at ASU from 2005-2010, and my mom was a dean there, so I got view into the university as both a student and second hand through her experience as an administrator. One thing I liked about going there is that it was easy for me to get exposure as a programmer by working for researchers at its public/private research ventures. The professors weren’t world famous but they were solid and always seemed to have some paid extracurricular coding for me to do for one of their research projects. On the administration side, I agree with this article that Crow’s vision has been basically validated. Despite its increasing size, ASU’s academic stature via research output and reputation among academics has continued to improve in the last 15 years. For example, ASU was just added to the prestigious Association of American Universities. Watching ASU transform over the years as Crow realized his vision has been very cool.
yardie 3y ago
This may seem new to most traditional American universities but most HBCUs have had this mission since their inception.
- Glyptodon 3y ago
  In theory it should be part of the mission of all land grand universities.
  - Mountain_Skies 3y ago
    AAU does not count agricultural research as "real" research and also cares too much about the internals of how schools organize their subdivisions. Land Grant universities that have both agricultural research and wide geographic access as parts of their missions are looked down upon by the AAU. As long as this attitude persists, AAU membership should be seen as a badge of elitist arrogance instead of anything to do with excellence.
jacurtis 3y ago
Ok, I know this is off-topic to the core idea of this essay, but one line made me think: > the cost of a respectable degree is *spiraling upwards*, while the value of that degree is spiraling downwards. The phrase "spiraling downwards" is common for something falling out of control, and is the correct usage here in terms of a degree's value. But can something also "spiral upwards"? Maybe it can, maybe it can't. I've never heard someone use the "spiraling upwards" analogy. The phrase originates from planes that lose their ability to maneuver and control themselves so they fall out of the sky in a spiral corkscrew fashion while trying to re-gain control, which fits with the general usage of the phrase. But spiraling upward is just funny to me, within the same anology it isn't probably possible or realistic. "Shooting upwards" is better probably. I really don't mean this as a critique to the author, i find the article very interesting. However, the writer inside of me just couldn't ignore the opportunity to discuss this usage. Now, shifting gears to the author's original point so I am actually adding value here. I agree that tech really degrades against academia right now. To the point of even praising or glorifying those who drop out of school. But there really is some incredible research happening in academia right now within tech. I wish more attention was spent on favoring this work and those who participate in it instead of focusing on silly algorithm puzzles and memorizing programming language syntax oddities. This stuff really isn't useful while being able to produce thoughtful technical reports and being able to effectively spread and share good ideas (which academia emphasizes) are positive traits that actually benefit any company and make your workplace better.
- tbrownaw 3y ago
  > But can something also "spiral upwards"? Birds on updrafts do this.
  - pbmonster 3y ago
    Also rockets with a thrust vector control loop stuck. Which probably is the better analogy, because usually that state doesn't last long before the rocket gets ripped apart by centrifugal/aerodynamic forces...
- nine_k 3y ago
bruce511 3y ago
Innovation in education is hard because real people become part of uour experiment, and usually there's no way for them to (realistically) do-over if it turns out the innovation made things else. That's why it's especially pleasing to read about success stories, where the trend is bucked and the results are positive. For me, success is determined by the graduates. Did they graduate? Did they go on to be successful? Are they functioning as valuable members of society? Are they happy with the outcomes? The article suggests that this is the case. More graduates, lower costs, good outcomes. I'm sure there are exceptions, and I'm sure there are complaints, but overall it seems positive. Call it a degree-mill all you like, but if it's serving the masses and those folks are finding their degree useful, then grind away...
ggm 3y ago
To some extent, the expansion of the university system in the 50s and 60s and 70s carried the seeds of it's own destruction. We've been in 10-15 year cycles of concern over the nature of tertiary education probably forever, certainly across my lifetime (I went to a 1950s/60s boom redbrick in the UK as a student) and in two continents (I studied and worked in the UK system, and worked in the Australian one) Now, with degrees sold to asia for $18b a year (Australia) and a complete distortion of the public interest in study (degrees once expensive, then free, now expensive again) We're in a place where as this article says, the cost/value disfunction is extreme. Tenure track chasing is it's own whole nightmare too
drawkbox 3y ago
Historical note: Obama spoke at the Arizona State University commencement in 2009 in regards to this "New American University" idea and the Obama Scholars Program, it was one of the first things he did as president a few months in. [1] It was pretty interesting to graduate from my graduate program and see Obama at the commencement but the idea is a solid one. The appearance at the commencement in regards to the "New American University" idea made it apparent how education would be a focus and Obama made financial aid available to everyone easier, and more balanced, with FAFSA. Some amazing work is coming out of a public state university and that is exciting, in sustainability, in technology, in space exploration (Rovers) and many other things. ASU and community colleges, which recently are able to give out bachelors degrees, are some of the best parts of Arizona and bright spots on how education can be competitive both in quality and cost, as well as available to all that want to pursue. [2] [1] https://president.asu.edu/watch/obama-at-asu-commencement-speech-with-intro-by-michael-crow https://president.asu.edu/watch/obama-at-asu-commencement-sp... [2] https://www.maricopa.edu/degrees-certificates/bachelors-degrees https://www.maricopa.edu/degrees-certificates/bachelors-degr...
carom 3y ago
My girlfriend just transferred into ASU after getting her associates degree. We did a massive review of all the data science curriculums we could find, in person and online. ASU was a stand out and rolling online admissions meant she could start a year sooner than at a UC. I have a BA and MS in computer science and I have been very happy with what they are teaching her. From good CS progressions to math classes that primarily use Matlab. They seem well tied into industry (defense) and teach practical skills. My understanding is that they are still ramping up their online offerings. There isn't a CS specialization for data science online yet, for example. If they keep going in the same direction though, it will be amazing.
wrp 3y ago
TFA left me confused. I was at ASU briefly around 2000 and while it lived up to its "reputation as a party school for hot people," it also aggressively pursued being a major research campus. What did Crow do differently? From the article, it sounds like more of the same. The administrative changes mentioned sound like the sort of thing schools do to save money but that worsen the teaching environment. I haven't kept touch with anyone at ASU, so I don't know how faculty have regarded the changes.
- SecondTimeAgain 3y ago
  It's a fair question graduated HS in 2002 and lived in Tempe at the time and several of my friends' parents were professors at ASU. To you first question about what did Crow do differently, a lot and also not much. Consider, he was chosen by the regents because his vision aligned with theirs and the direction the school was already headed. Regarding how faculty have regarded the changes, the short answer, it depends. I distinctly remember hearing of opinions on both sides during those first few years. What I can say is the quality of the faculty, the rankings of the various colleges, and research grants and outcomes have improved beyond anyone's wildest dreams.
skepticATX 3y ago
I'm biased because I'm an ASU grad, but I absolutely love Dr. Crow and ASU's mission. People who call ASU a degree mill (I've honestly never even heard anyone say that) should realize that the programs are accredited just like any other university. Don't confuse it with University of Phoenix. I have since gone on to get a Master's degree from a top 10 engineering school and can safely say that ASU was just as rigorous. Anecdotally, all of my classmates have had excellent outcomes, and all for < 10k a year at the time. Exclusivity in education is a relic of an earlier time and just doesn't make sense today.
- skulk 3y ago
  Recent ASU grad here, in CS. It pains me to say this, but the standards are completely non-existent. Professors use lectures and assignments that have been recycled for the past decade and a half (maybe more). I had a database class where we learned relational algebra (ok) and ... MS access, which frankly felt like an insult for a 400-level (3rd or 4th year) class. I compared assignments with friends who went to schools like UIUC, UT Austin, Georgia Tech, CMU, and those were all LEAGUES beyond anything we did at ASU (I can write more about what I've seen if anyone is interested) The number of lecturers in the CS department that disregard pedagogy for research is astonishing, and makes the undergrad experience horrible. I still think ASU is doing good with the New American University model and I have benefitted from it immensely. I just don't want anyone to get the idea that it's even in the same ballpark for CS as more popular CS programs.
  - SecondTimeAgain 3y ago
    I think the distinction that gets missed in this conversation is undergrad vs post-grad. The undergrad model is more about access. On the other hand post-grad programs and research is about quality.
  - nradov 3y ago
    What was actually on the syllabus for your database course? If it spent a lot of time teaching MS Access technical skills then that would be a waste. But there's nothing wrong with using Access as a convenient tool to teach fundamental concepts of relational databases.
0xshaft03 3y ago
This is the first time that I have ever posted and I am only doing so because I feel the need to spread the word. I am active duty military and was able to earn a $102k Software Engineering degree without touching my GI Bill benefits because of ASU. They have an automatic military (to include reservists) scholarship that essentially makes the school the cost of US military tuition assistance ($250 a credit hour). The process for applying for TA through the military is simple enough, and then you only have to email a pdf to the requisite ASU email. Because of this, I was able to transfer my full GI bill to my daughter.
- ericmay 3y ago
  This is great, and as an aside I want to mention that if you are in high school and you are smart but maybe not ready for college, joining the military out of high school, using your GI Bill to get an engineering degree, and doing a good job and getting good grades is a first class ticket to true middle class. You graduate debt free, eligible for Pell grants, you get paid BAH (monthly housing stipend) and you don’t have to rush 4 years of school but can take your time. Military service + engineering skills after graduating at, say, 26 years old and you’re set up for a good ride. Plus the VA loan when you’re ready to buy a house. But if you don’t have a Purple Heart or you aren’t really old you better not park in those “veterans parking” spots I see at Lowes.
  - ss2003 3y ago
    And I'd like add if you are not a "Pro" you better not park in the "Pro Parking" spots at Home Depot either.
    - ericmay 3y ago
      I laughed at that. I forgot they had those.
  - 0xshaft03 3y ago
    This is spot on.
  - 3y ago
lproven 3y ago
I tried to read this, but it assumes a lot of knowledge about the US university system that as a European I lack. Can anyone summarise it from a ROTW point of view?
- SecondTimeAgain 3y ago
  Malcolm Gladwell has done a few podcasts on this topic that I'd recommend if you're interested. Also, he wrote this op-ed in the NYT back in 2005, It's been a while since I last read this but I think it may help as well: https://t.co/hexkV1eziH https://t.co/hexkV1eziH General summary on the issue, Ivy League schools created a model of exclusivity and became more about who they didn't let in and many sub-Ivy League tier 1 schools followed. Crow's New American University model was more about creating the capacity and providing greater access to quality education for many.
  - lproven 3y ago
    Thanks very much! I will read the New Yorker article. As it happens, as a speed reader, I can't abide podcasts -- spoken word is way too slow for me. It's an infuriating way of absorbing information.
    - SecondTimeAgain 3y ago
      I can definitely relate, I felt the same way until someone suggested listening at 1.25x or 1.5x speed, depending on how fast the host talks. FWIW here's part 1 of the podcast I mentioned S1E4: https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revisionist-history/carlos-doesnt-remember https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revisionist-history/carlos-d...
eel 3y ago
Having grown up in Arizona and attended ASU, ASU has always been this way. ASU has always accepted students at a high rate and has always been sure to structure degrees and classes to meet existing accreditations. "New American University" has always been more marketing rather than some radical change. There are several public universities with similar goals across the country, such as Colorado State or Indiana. It's a great model for churning out highly educated workers. We need that, and there is a place for higher educational institutions that do that well. But for all of its graduates, ASU doesn't produce many thinkers, founders, philosophers—people who are going to move the needle of our society. To see this, compare the notable alumni lists of, say, ASU and Stanford (both founded in the same year). Look at Turing Award recipients, Nobel Laureates, etc. It's not a new American university - ASU is the same as it's always been. When I look at the largest universities in the US by enrollment, I think the closest university to a true "New American University" is UIUC (no affiliation) in Illinois. Enrollment is in the top 10, similar in size to ASU. They have multiple programs ranked in the top 10 including computer science. While past success doesn't predict the future, there are some heavy hitters on the UIUC alumni list - Marc Andreessen, Steve Chen, Max Levchin. Would love if anyone happend to attend both ASU and UIUC and could compare the two.
- lofatdairy 3y ago
  I imagine location is a big part. That said it's probably an unfair comparison to put a wealthy private school to a public school, especially when prestige is so essentially self-reinforcing. ASU is obviously a fantastic school, but it's ability to offer attractive faculty positions to top researchers will be limited compared to schools that are essentially the educational arm of a hedge fund. You bring up Stanford, a school with a sort of comparable start historically would be Clark University (which might surprise some it's notability has somewhat waned in this century). I think Clark's trajectory would demonstrate the importance of location. Both UIUC and Stanford have enough nearby schools where it doesn't really compete heavily for resources, but also enough where you get strong collaborative efforts. There's also a technology bias in both who we're looking at as notable alumni, as well as where both schools are pretty much best known for. If we were talking about financiers, we'd probably see more UMich and UVA I'd hazard.
- 3y ago
nh23423fefe 3y ago
I went to ASU from 2002 to 2007. People ask/comment me 2 things always. They have always said, "whoa party school." But recently people now ask, "online?" I used to think it was because I'm east coast. This is the first I'm hearing that its a "degree mill" I had no idea i didn't go to a "real school"
lcall 3y ago
Some other universities with really interesting/useful approaches are (both accredited): WGU: fully online, you can go faster and thus reduce total tuition costs, targeted to those whose work experience can justify college credit (competency-based, you can test out of things quickly, and tuition is by semester, for as many classes as you can take or test out of, I believe). Around 130k students, accredited by 4 different regional bodies, and affiliates in a number of US states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wgu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wgu BYU Pathway Worldwide: also fully online (I think), and very religious (though membership not required, just an "affiliation" or such, last I knew), but tuition is far cheaper, especially as it is adjusted based on the student's country of residence to be very affordable, and even has a program to learn English before joining the main curriculum (which is all in English), with ~ 61k students worldwide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYU%E2%80%93Pathway_Worldwide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYU%E2%80%93Pathway_Worldwide
- lotsoweiners 3y ago
  I received a competency based bachelors degree, Northern Arizona University. These are great degrees for people already in the industry who are looking for additional credentials (my situation was I already had an associates and was employed as a developer). I would never recommend a program like this for someone with zero/low experience and without a good deal of self motivation and management.
brightlancer 3y ago
Targeting "fast casual" will work really well for lots of students, but I question how many of them needed college for anything other than the piece of paper. It may be that ASU provides good value for the dollar; it is not realistic that they provide to 76k students the experience that a smaller university can offer to 5k students or even 15k students. Most jobs and careers do not require a 4-year university education. Even most "tech" jobs don't, because for every job that needs a mathematician there are 10 that need a narrow-skilled technician, either trained by a boot camp (coding) or an apprenticeship (sysadmin/ netadmin).
- lotsoweiners 3y ago
  Sure but if the job listings are saying “College Degree in something” applicants without a degree are likely to get rejected well before interviews because it is an easy filter for HR.

102 points by jseliger 3y ago

All partially funded by sweetheart lease deals between land ASU owns and billions of dollars in corporate office buildings and hotels thanks to the tax exempt status of the University. Status that is supposed to be used for educational purposes but instead is turning the ASU campus into a commercial property tax haven. https://tucson.com/news/local/arizona-ag-sues-to-block-universities-from-leasing-land-to-commercial-businesses/article_c1210c2f-da3f-5a35-9678-6aa10f2efb9a.html

hakfoo 3y ago
As someone who attended at the turn of the millenium, the entire area is unrecognizable now, with all the towers that have gone up where it used to be low-rise shops and restaurants servicing the student audience. Traffic's a mess and you can't park at the Chuckbox during the school year. OTOH, some of the new buildings did seem nice (the astronomy programme had an open day earlier this year) And yet, there's still no proper grocery store in orbit of the campus; there was a sketchy IGA back in the early 1990s, but they gradually drove all the tenants out of the strip mall, claiming it would eventually be built into a wildly-needed parking structure; instead they built a 25-story retirement home on campus. I feel like the weirdest angle on it is the entire Shady Park scuffle: they built the retirement tower largely during the pandemic, and people kvetched to the point of a legal dispute when the club across the street started having noisy concerts again. How do you have a large mainstream college WITHOUT things loud college bars nearby? What exactly did they expect?
- farazbabar 3y ago
  Have you been around lately? There is a safeway on rural road (basically scottsdale rd in tempe).
- russdill 3y ago
  Pour out a Big Juan with cheese for me, will ya?
  - lotsoweiners 3y ago
    Chuck box is getting internet famous now. I haven’t been there in well over a decade but I think I need to change that in the next few weeks.
- SecondTimeAgain 3y ago
  Who doesn't miss catching MBA students doing coke in the bathroom at Rula Bula, I know I do.
- browningstreet 3y ago
  I graduated from ASU in 1995. Tempe was a local’s community until the Chase development and SuperBowl XXX signaled what was to come. Sun Devil stadium is dwarfed by those giant glass buildings and the whole place feels mega- and apocalyptic.

nine_k 3y ago

«Most universities aspire towards offering a Michelin star experience to students, but what we actually need is a ‘fast casual’, Cheesecake Factory-like option that can provide an affordable, quality education to millions.»

pkrecker 3y ago

I studied CS at ASU from 2005-2010, and my mom was a dean there, so I got view into the university as both a student and second hand through her experience as an administrator. One thing I liked about going there is that it was easy for me to get exposure as a programmer by working for researchers at its public/private research ventures. The professors weren’t world famous but they were solid and always seemed to have some paid extracurricular coding for me to do for one of their research projects. On the administration side, I agree with this article that Crow’s vision has been basically validated. Despite its increasing size, ASU’s academic stature via research output and reputation among academics has continued to improve in the last 15 years. For example, ASU was just added to the prestigious Association of American Universities. Watching ASU transform over the years as Crow realized his vision has been very cool.

yardie 3y ago

This may seem new to most traditional American universities but most HBCUs have had this mission since their inception.

Glyptodon 3y ago
In theory it should be part of the mission of all land grand universities.
- Mountain_Skies 3y ago
  AAU does not count agricultural research as "real" research and also cares too much about the internals of how schools organize their subdivisions. Land Grant universities that have both agricultural research and wide geographic access as parts of their missions are looked down upon by the AAU. As long as this attitude persists, AAU membership should be seen as a badge of elitist arrogance instead of anything to do with excellence.

jacurtis 3y ago

Ok, I know this is off-topic to the core idea of this essay, but one line made me think: > the cost of a respectable degree is *spiraling upwards*, while the value of that degree is spiraling downwards. The phrase "spiraling downwards" is common for something falling out of control, and is the correct usage here in terms of a degree's value. But can something also "spiral upwards"? Maybe it can, maybe it can't. I've never heard someone use the "spiraling upwards" analogy. The phrase originates from planes that lose their ability to maneuver and control themselves so they fall out of the sky in a spiral corkscrew fashion while trying to re-gain control, which fits with the general usage of the phrase. But spiraling upward is just funny to me, within the same anology it isn't probably possible or realistic. "Shooting upwards" is better probably. I really don't mean this as a critique to the author, i find the article very interesting. However, the writer inside of me just couldn't ignore the opportunity to discuss this usage. Now, shifting gears to the author's original point so I am actually adding value here. I agree that tech really degrades against academia right now. To the point of even praising or glorifying those who drop out of school. But there really is some incredible research happening in academia right now within tech. I wish more attention was spent on favoring this work and those who participate in it instead of focusing on silly algorithm puzzles and memorizing programming language syntax oddities. This stuff really isn't useful while being able to produce thoughtful technical reports and being able to effectively spread and share good ideas (which academia emphasizes) are positive traits that actually benefit any company and make your workplace better.

tbrownaw 3y ago
> But can something also "spiral upwards"? Birds on updrafts do this.
- pbmonster 3y ago
  Also rockets with a thrust vector control loop stuck. Which probably is the better analogy, because usually that state doesn't last long before the rocket gets ripped apart by centrifugal/aerodynamic forces...
nine_k 3y ago

bruce511 3y ago

Innovation in education is hard because real people become part of uour experiment, and usually there's no way for them to (realistically) do-over if it turns out the innovation made things else. That's why it's especially pleasing to read about success stories, where the trend is bucked and the results are positive. For me, success is determined by the graduates. Did they graduate? Did they go on to be successful? Are they functioning as valuable members of society? Are they happy with the outcomes? The article suggests that this is the case. More graduates, lower costs, good outcomes. I'm sure there are exceptions, and I'm sure there are complaints, but overall it seems positive. Call it a degree-mill all you like, but if it's serving the masses and those folks are finding their degree useful, then grind away...

ggm 3y ago

To some extent, the expansion of the university system in the 50s and 60s and 70s carried the seeds of it's own destruction. We've been in 10-15 year cycles of concern over the nature of tertiary education probably forever, certainly across my lifetime (I went to a 1950s/60s boom redbrick in the UK as a student) and in two continents (I studied and worked in the UK system, and worked in the Australian one) Now, with degrees sold to asia for $18b a year (Australia) and a complete distortion of the public interest in study (degrees once expensive, then free, now expensive again) We're in a place where as this article says, the cost/value disfunction is extreme. Tenure track chasing is it's own whole nightmare too

drawkbox 3y ago

Historical note: Obama spoke at the Arizona State University commencement in 2009 in regards to this "New American University" idea and the Obama Scholars Program, it was one of the first things he did as president a few months in. [1] It was pretty interesting to graduate from my graduate program and see Obama at the commencement but the idea is a solid one. The appearance at the commencement in regards to the "New American University" idea made it apparent how education would be a focus and Obama made financial aid available to everyone easier, and more balanced, with FAFSA. Some amazing work is coming out of a public state university and that is exciting, in sustainability, in technology, in space exploration (Rovers) and many other things. ASU and community colleges, which recently are able to give out bachelors degrees, are some of the best parts of Arizona and bright spots on how education can be competitive both in quality and cost, as well as available to all that want to pursue. [2] [1] https://president.asu.edu/watch/obama-at-asu-commencement-speech-with-intro-by-michael-crow https://president.asu.edu/watch/obama-at-asu-commencement-sp... [2] https://www.maricopa.edu/degrees-certificates/bachelors-degrees https://www.maricopa.edu/degrees-certificates/bachelors-degr...

carom 3y ago

My girlfriend just transferred into ASU after getting her associates degree. We did a massive review of all the data science curriculums we could find, in person and online. ASU was a stand out and rolling online admissions meant she could start a year sooner than at a UC. I have a BA and MS in computer science and I have been very happy with what they are teaching her. From good CS progressions to math classes that primarily use Matlab. They seem well tied into industry (defense) and teach practical skills. My understanding is that they are still ramping up their online offerings. There isn't a CS specialization for data science online yet, for example. If they keep going in the same direction though, it will be amazing.

wrp 3y ago

TFA left me confused. I was at ASU briefly around 2000 and while it lived up to its "reputation as a party school for hot people," it also aggressively pursued being a major research campus. What did Crow do differently? From the article, it sounds like more of the same. The administrative changes mentioned sound like the sort of thing schools do to save money but that worsen the teaching environment. I haven't kept touch with anyone at ASU, so I don't know how faculty have regarded the changes.

SecondTimeAgain 3y ago
It's a fair question graduated HS in 2002 and lived in Tempe at the time and several of my friends' parents were professors at ASU. To you first question about what did Crow do differently, a lot and also not much. Consider, he was chosen by the regents because his vision aligned with theirs and the direction the school was already headed. Regarding how faculty have regarded the changes, the short answer, it depends. I distinctly remember hearing of opinions on both sides during those first few years. What I can say is the quality of the faculty, the rankings of the various colleges, and research grants and outcomes have improved beyond anyone's wildest dreams.

skepticATX 3y ago

I'm biased because I'm an ASU grad, but I absolutely love Dr. Crow and ASU's mission. People who call ASU a degree mill (I've honestly never even heard anyone say that) should realize that the programs are accredited just like any other university. Don't confuse it with University of Phoenix. I have since gone on to get a Master's degree from a top 10 engineering school and can safely say that ASU was just as rigorous. Anecdotally, all of my classmates have had excellent outcomes, and all for < 10k a year at the time. Exclusivity in education is a relic of an earlier time and just doesn't make sense today.

skulk 3y ago
Recent ASU grad here, in CS. It pains me to say this, but the standards are completely non-existent. Professors use lectures and assignments that have been recycled for the past decade and a half (maybe more). I had a database class where we learned relational algebra (ok) and ... MS access, which frankly felt like an insult for a 400-level (3rd or 4th year) class. I compared assignments with friends who went to schools like UIUC, UT Austin, Georgia Tech, CMU, and those were all LEAGUES beyond anything we did at ASU (I can write more about what I've seen if anyone is interested) The number of lecturers in the CS department that disregard pedagogy for research is astonishing, and makes the undergrad experience horrible. I still think ASU is doing good with the New American University model and I have benefitted from it immensely. I just don't want anyone to get the idea that it's even in the same ballpark for CS as more popular CS programs.
- SecondTimeAgain 3y ago
  I think the distinction that gets missed in this conversation is undergrad vs post-grad. The undergrad model is more about access. On the other hand post-grad programs and research is about quality.
- nradov 3y ago
  What was actually on the syllabus for your database course? If it spent a lot of time teaching MS Access technical skills then that would be a waste. But there's nothing wrong with using Access as a convenient tool to teach fundamental concepts of relational databases.

0xshaft03 3y ago

This is the first time that I have ever posted and I am only doing so because I feel the need to spread the word. I am active duty military and was able to earn a $102k Software Engineering degree without touching my GI Bill benefits because of ASU. They have an automatic military (to include reservists) scholarship that essentially makes the school the cost of US military tuition assistance ($250 a credit hour). The process for applying for TA through the military is simple enough, and then you only have to email a pdf to the requisite ASU email. Because of this, I was able to transfer my full GI bill to my daughter.

ericmay 3y ago
This is great, and as an aside I want to mention that if you are in high school and you are smart but maybe not ready for college, joining the military out of high school, using your GI Bill to get an engineering degree, and doing a good job and getting good grades is a first class ticket to true middle class. You graduate debt free, eligible for Pell grants, you get paid BAH (monthly housing stipend) and you don’t have to rush 4 years of school but can take your time. Military service + engineering skills after graduating at, say, 26 years old and you’re set up for a good ride. Plus the VA loan when you’re ready to buy a house. But if you don’t have a Purple Heart or you aren’t really old you better not park in those “veterans parking” spots I see at Lowes.
- ss2003 3y ago
  And I'd like add if you are not a "Pro" you better not park in the "Pro Parking" spots at Home Depot either.
  - ericmay 3y ago
    I laughed at that. I forgot they had those.
- 0xshaft03 3y ago
  This is spot on.
- 3y ago

lproven 3y ago

I tried to read this, but it assumes a lot of knowledge about the US university system that as a European I lack. Can anyone summarise it from a ROTW point of view?

SecondTimeAgain 3y ago
Malcolm Gladwell has done a few podcasts on this topic that I'd recommend if you're interested. Also, he wrote this op-ed in the NYT back in 2005, It's been a while since I last read this but I think it may help as well: https://t.co/hexkV1eziH https://t.co/hexkV1eziH General summary on the issue, Ivy League schools created a model of exclusivity and became more about who they didn't let in and many sub-Ivy League tier 1 schools followed. Crow's New American University model was more about creating the capacity and providing greater access to quality education for many.
- lproven 3y ago
  Thanks very much! I will read the New Yorker article. As it happens, as a speed reader, I can't abide podcasts -- spoken word is way too slow for me. It's an infuriating way of absorbing information.
  - SecondTimeAgain 3y ago
    I can definitely relate, I felt the same way until someone suggested listening at 1.25x or 1.5x speed, depending on how fast the host talks. FWIW here's part 1 of the podcast I mentioned S1E4: https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revisionist-history/carlos-doesnt-remember https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revisionist-history/carlos-d...

eel 3y ago

Having grown up in Arizona and attended ASU, ASU has always been this way. ASU has always accepted students at a high rate and has always been sure to structure degrees and classes to meet existing accreditations. "New American University" has always been more marketing rather than some radical change. There are several public universities with similar goals across the country, such as Colorado State or Indiana. It's a great model for churning out highly educated workers. We need that, and there is a place for higher educational institutions that do that well. But for all of its graduates, ASU doesn't produce many thinkers, founders, philosophers—people who are going to move the needle of our society. To see this, compare the notable alumni lists of, say, ASU and Stanford (both founded in the same year). Look at Turing Award recipients, Nobel Laureates, etc. It's not a new American university - ASU is the same as it's always been. When I look at the largest universities in the US by enrollment, I think the closest university to a true "New American University" is UIUC (no affiliation) in Illinois. Enrollment is in the top 10, similar in size to ASU. They have multiple programs ranked in the top 10 including computer science. While past success doesn't predict the future, there are some heavy hitters on the UIUC alumni list - Marc Andreessen, Steve Chen, Max Levchin. Would love if anyone happend to attend both ASU and UIUC and could compare the two.

lofatdairy 3y ago
I imagine location is a big part. That said it's probably an unfair comparison to put a wealthy private school to a public school, especially when prestige is so essentially self-reinforcing. ASU is obviously a fantastic school, but it's ability to offer attractive faculty positions to top researchers will be limited compared to schools that are essentially the educational arm of a hedge fund. You bring up Stanford, a school with a sort of comparable start historically would be Clark University (which might surprise some it's notability has somewhat waned in this century). I think Clark's trajectory would demonstrate the importance of location. Both UIUC and Stanford have enough nearby schools where it doesn't really compete heavily for resources, but also enough where you get strong collaborative efforts. There's also a technology bias in both who we're looking at as notable alumni, as well as where both schools are pretty much best known for. If we were talking about financiers, we'd probably see more UMich and UVA I'd hazard.
3y ago

nh23423fefe 3y ago

I went to ASU from 2002 to 2007. People ask/comment me 2 things always. They have always said, "whoa party school." But recently people now ask, "online?" I used to think it was because I'm east coast. This is the first I'm hearing that its a "degree mill" I had no idea i didn't go to a "real school"

lcall 3y ago

Some other universities with really interesting/useful approaches are (both accredited): WGU: fully online, you can go faster and thus reduce total tuition costs, targeted to those whose work experience can justify college credit (competency-based, you can test out of things quickly, and tuition is by semester, for as many classes as you can take or test out of, I believe). Around 130k students, accredited by 4 different regional bodies, and affiliates in a number of US states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wgu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wgu BYU Pathway Worldwide: also fully online (I think), and very religious (though membership not required, just an "affiliation" or such, last I knew), but tuition is far cheaper, especially as it is adjusted based on the student's country of residence to be very affordable, and even has a program to learn English before joining the main curriculum (which is all in English), with ~ 61k students worldwide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYU%E2%80%93Pathway_Worldwide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYU%E2%80%93Pathway_Worldwide

lotsoweiners 3y ago
I received a competency based bachelors degree, Northern Arizona University. These are great degrees for people already in the industry who are looking for additional credentials (my situation was I already had an associates and was employed as a developer). I would never recommend a program like this for someone with zero/low experience and without a good deal of self motivation and management.

brightlancer 3y ago

Targeting "fast casual" will work really well for lots of students, but I question how many of them needed college for anything other than the piece of paper. It may be that ASU provides good value for the dollar; it is not realistic that they provide to 76k students the experience that a smaller university can offer to 5k students or even 15k students. Most jobs and careers do not require a 4-year university education. Even most "tech" jobs don't, because for every job that needs a mathematician there are 10 that need a narrow-skilled technician, either trained by a boot camp (coding) or an apprenticeship (sysadmin/ netadmin).

lotsoweiners 3y ago
Sure but if the job listings are saying “College Degree in something” applicants without a degree are likely to get rejected well before interviews because it is an easy filter for HR.