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Your conspiracy explanation doesn’t pass the sniff test. There’s a much much simpler explanation: lack of demand. Heck, you’d think people on hacker news would

Your conspiracy explanation doesn’t pass the sniff test. There’s a much much simpler explanation: lack of demand. Heck, you’d think people on hacker news would be all over open source alternatives to proprietary hardware, software, and services. Yet take a brief wander over to one of the many (many) recent Reddit crisis threads and you’ll find countless naysayers talking about how lemmy and the like will never succeed, despite gaining hundreds of thousands of users in a week and a half.

BSEdlMMldESB 3y ago
it is really incredible, how could lack of demand be made to happen? but I'm not trying to imply anything. I merely wonder if such a thing (to create or destroy demand of something) is possible; and if it were, how would you do it? surely it involves marketing? but I also want to reflect on the market cap of convenience...
- Arnavion 3y ago
  Linux phones are a niche within a niche. Marketing won't do anything to change that. Most people are satisfied with iPhones and Androids, and the few that aren't are mostly satisfied with degoogled Androids.
  - __d 3y ago
    That's the problem with the vision of a Linux phone as being "iOS/Android-like, but without the corporate control". For an open phone to be truly successful, it has to be better for its users, and in a way that's worth shifting ecosystems for.
Arnavion 3y ago
>Heck, you’d think people on hacker news would be all over open source alternatives to proprietary hardware, software, and services. Yes, every PinePhone thread has people posting that it's unusable because it's not as good as a flagship iPhone or Android. Or the usual "not ready to be a daily driver" ... because the definition of "daily driver" is apparently a constant of the universe written by God so everyone is expected to have the same one. Meanwhile I've been "daily-driving" my PP for two years at this point because calls, SMS, voicemail, Firefox and the camera work well enough.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  For me a mobile phone needs: phone; SMS; Web browser; maps/navigation. That’s 90% of what I do with my phone and I can live without the other 10%
- not_your_vase 3y ago
  This is kind of my biggest gripe with Pine64 (beside the unusable modem in the Pinephones, which crashes all the time): the community. Every time I google something related a pine* product problem, there is at least 1 result from pine64 forum where the answer is along the lines of "if you don't like it, go away. we are happy with it as it is, there is no solution, and you shouldn't be seeking one. you are bad person for even asking. pine* is not made by apple/samsung, you can't expect it to do things". I have quite a bunch of pine64 devices, but after I saw these interactions, I didn't even dare to ask anything nor to interact with them on any level.
  - Arnavion 3y ago
    >(beside the unusable modem in the Pinephones, which crashes all the time) Install the OSS firmware. Quectel firmware is shitty. For me the OSS firmware doesn't crash at all, though I've heard other people say it still crashes for them once a day or so (?). In any case eg25-m will bring it back so it won't be "unusable". >"if you don't like it, go away. we are happy with it as it is, there is no solution, and you shouldn't be seeking one. you are bad person for even asking. pine* is not made by apple/samsung, you can't expect it to do things". You only get these responses if you reveal yourself as someone who didn't read the warning labels before buying the hardware and/or if you act entitled to a solution, as AndyKelley did in this thread. We indeed do not have any patience for someone who comes in and says "It's complete trash. The software is shit, the battery is shit, it's expensive, low specs, completely unusable."
    - not_your_vase 3y ago
      I have tried each every available modem fw versions, including the closed source ones, and all possible versions from biktor also (I did run multi-day experiments with each of them, taking notes about their stability, looking for a working version). Every single one of them crashes, the only difference is the time spent between crashes. Maybe it is usable for you. My definition is different - if I can't rely on it for any period of time, it is not suitable for any purpose, but for messing around. I won't try to convince anyone about the (un)friendliness of the community. If you enjoy its current state, good for you. I, for one, avoid it. I guess everyone can decide what community they want to participate. While GP's language was definitely coarse, he does make some point. Personally I'm in for the hacking, I care relatively little for other people's (userspace-) software on these devices. But I do see a lot of sentiments around the web saying things like "look how good phosh/kde/XYZ is running on the PP, wow, such speed, many responsiveness" - even though it is objectively not running good when tried in person. Such statements can definitely trick users who just want a novelty phone - they read these reviews, and think that finally there is a viable alternative. (Disclaimer: while I'm not a fan of some aspects like userspace sw and community, I'm a big fan of most Pine64 hardware, and I not only don't regret any cent I spent with them, I plan to throw more money at them.)
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
My personal favorite explanation for nearly everything: money Locked down platforms without user freedom are a goldmine
api 3y ago
The naysayers are jaded folks who have watched two generations trade all privacy, freedom, honesty, transparency, openness, and even ownership of their own data for convenience. Judging by consumer behavior it appears that ease of use is more important than virtually any other concern. People who really care about things like privacy and freedom are too few in number to tilt the market, and this is compounded by the fact that as a rule FOSS people don’t pay for things. So the market here is a small number of cheapskates.
- chongli 3y ago
  I think the intersection of people who were outraged at Reddit’s API change and “average consumers” is very small. They honestly aren’t important to me because for the most part they’re lurkers anyway. The people I care about are the power users, the posters, the creators. People put effort into building communities. Those folks are very few in number but extremely important. They can create a community anywhere they go. They’re also willing to put in effort to begin with so it’s generally easier to get them to move to lemmy when the experience may not be as polished.

BSEdlMMldESB 3y ago

it is really incredible, how could lack of demand be made to happen? but I'm not trying to imply anything. I merely wonder if such a thing (to create or destroy demand of something) is possible; and if it were, how would you do it? surely it involves marketing? but I also want to reflect on the market cap of convenience...

Arnavion 3y ago
Linux phones are a niche within a niche. Marketing won't do anything to change that. Most people are satisfied with iPhones and Androids, and the few that aren't are mostly satisfied with degoogled Androids.
- __d 3y ago
  That's the problem with the vision of a Linux phone as being "iOS/Android-like, but without the corporate control". For an open phone to be truly successful, it has to be better for its users, and in a way that's worth shifting ecosystems for.

Arnavion 3y ago

>Heck, you’d think people on hacker news would be all over open source alternatives to proprietary hardware, software, and services. Yes, every PinePhone thread has people posting that it's unusable because it's not as good as a flagship iPhone or Android. Or the usual "not ready to be a daily driver" ... because the definition of "daily driver" is apparently a constant of the universe written by God so everyone is expected to have the same one. Meanwhile I've been "daily-driving" my PP for two years at this point because calls, SMS, voicemail, Firefox and the camera work well enough.

SoftTalker 3y ago
For me a mobile phone needs: phone; SMS; Web browser; maps/navigation. That’s 90% of what I do with my phone and I can live without the other 10%
not_your_vase 3y ago
This is kind of my biggest gripe with Pine64 (beside the unusable modem in the Pinephones, which crashes all the time): the community. Every time I google something related a pine* product problem, there is at least 1 result from pine64 forum where the answer is along the lines of "if you don't like it, go away. we are happy with it as it is, there is no solution, and you shouldn't be seeking one. you are bad person for even asking. pine* is not made by apple/samsung, you can't expect it to do things". I have quite a bunch of pine64 devices, but after I saw these interactions, I didn't even dare to ask anything nor to interact with them on any level.
- Arnavion 3y ago
  >(beside the unusable modem in the Pinephones, which crashes all the time) Install the OSS firmware. Quectel firmware is shitty. For me the OSS firmware doesn't crash at all, though I've heard other people say it still crashes for them once a day or so (?). In any case eg25-m will bring it back so it won't be "unusable". >"if you don't like it, go away. we are happy with it as it is, there is no solution, and you shouldn't be seeking one. you are bad person for even asking. pine* is not made by apple/samsung, you can't expect it to do things". You only get these responses if you reveal yourself as someone who didn't read the warning labels before buying the hardware and/or if you act entitled to a solution, as AndyKelley did in this thread. We indeed do not have any patience for someone who comes in and says "It's complete trash. The software is shit, the battery is shit, it's expensive, low specs, completely unusable."
  - not_your_vase 3y ago
    I have tried each every available modem fw versions, including the closed source ones, and all possible versions from biktor also (I did run multi-day experiments with each of them, taking notes about their stability, looking for a working version). Every single one of them crashes, the only difference is the time spent between crashes. Maybe it is usable for you. My definition is different - if I can't rely on it for any period of time, it is not suitable for any purpose, but for messing around. I won't try to convince anyone about the (un)friendliness of the community. If you enjoy its current state, good for you. I, for one, avoid it. I guess everyone can decide what community they want to participate. While GP's language was definitely coarse, he does make some point. Personally I'm in for the hacking, I care relatively little for other people's (userspace-) software on these devices. But I do see a lot of sentiments around the web saying things like "look how good phosh/kde/XYZ is running on the PP, wow, such speed, many responsiveness" - even though it is objectively not running good when tried in person. Such statements can definitely trick users who just want a novelty phone - they read these reviews, and think that finally there is a viable alternative. (Disclaimer: while I'm not a fan of some aspects like userspace sw and community, I'm a big fan of most Pine64 hardware, and I not only don't regret any cent I spent with them, I plan to throw more money at them.)

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

My personal favorite explanation for nearly everything: money Locked down platforms without user freedom are a goldmine

api 3y ago

The naysayers are jaded folks who have watched two generations trade all privacy, freedom, honesty, transparency, openness, and even ownership of their own data for convenience. Judging by consumer behavior it appears that ease of use is more important than virtually any other concern. People who really care about things like privacy and freedom are too few in number to tilt the market, and this is compounded by the fact that as a rule FOSS people don’t pay for things. So the market here is a small number of cheapskates.

chongli 3y ago
I think the intersection of people who were outraged at Reddit’s API change and “average consumers” is very small. They honestly aren’t important to me because for the most part they’re lurkers anyway. The people I care about are the power users, the posters, the creators. People put effort into building communities. Those folks are very few in number but extremely important. They can create a community anywhere they go. They’re also willing to put in effort to begin with so it’s generally easier to get them to move to lemmy when the experience may not be as polished.