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[flagged]

ryandrake 3y ago
Yup! > Wang Wenbin, a spokesman for the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, accused the Justice Department on Friday of “slanders and smears,” adding that transnational repression “is an allegation that best matches the U.S.’s own practices.” Looks like the official response from the Chinese government is whataboutism.
pdntspa 3y ago
What's a tankie? These people? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
- chongli 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    > Stereotypically college-educated This seems unlikely, as we all know that the more education a person receives, the more informed they are, the more capable of rational assessment of the world around them.
    - philomath_mn 3y ago
      I have not found this to be true. In an idealized case, I'd agree, but our institutions don't seem to be emphasizing "rational assessment" as an important skill. In fact there may be a slightly negative correlation because some experts spend so much time on their pet-topic that they end up rationalizing why their preferred evidence is better than the contradicting evidence (basically boosted confirmation bias)
    - chongli 3y ago
      This seems unlikely, as we all know that the more education a person receives, the more informed they are, the more capable of rational assessment of the world around them. I don't know how to say this without sounding glib, but I honestly cannot tell if your comment is sarcasm. Poe's law [1] applies. There are tons of college-educated people who are utterly incapable of critical thinking. They parrot what their radical professors told them. They don't know anything about statistics or philosophy or how to rationally criticize an argument. They just repeat talking anti-Western talking points. For them, the grass is greener on the other side of the world. They've never actually tried to live there, let alone talk to people from the authoritarian countries they idolize. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
      - EA-3167 3y ago
        I use a very simple heuristic when talking to that sort of person: "Why are people fleeing from your alleged paradise to an alleged criminal state? Why not the other way around? Get back to me when large numbers of Americans are fleeing to China to escape tyranny at home, search for new and better opportunities, etc."
        atlantic 3y ago
        At the moment, we're seeing large numbers of older Americans settling in Europe, to flee political conditions in the US. So no, it's not unique to China.
        LexiMax 3y ago
        > Get back to me when large numbers of Americans are fleeing to China to escape tyranny at home. This is actually happening here in the states: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/06/19/transgender-care-bans-cause-families-flee-other-states/70330832007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/06/19/transg... Depending on how the next few elections swing these families might not be safe anywhere in the continental US. They wouldn't be any safer in China, but this kind of tyranny can and does happen here at home.
        NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
        [flagged]
        LexiMax 3y ago
        > Insane people want insane things occasionally The area of gender-affirming care is and has been well studied in both adults and teenagers by accredited doctors and pediatricians, and the preponderance of the evidence is firmly in the "pro" category. What trans-women truly want, aside from leading a happy and fulfilling life, is to continue to have access to the health care they need for survival, and for people with the ears of politicians to stop threatening them with either death or forced detransition. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cpac-speaker-transgender-people-eradicated-1234690924/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cpac-spe...
    - 6510 3y ago
      There is this funny thing on wikipedia where highly educated people contribute a lot to articles in their field then accidentally end up on the wrong page and turn into the worse possible childish troll. Bit like the cliche joke about HN: Computer science makes people think they are an expert in all fields. Only without the civility.
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
> you’re naive if you think the West doesn’t do this This is used constantly here as well. When I ask for evidence I'm naive, stupid, etc. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36232186 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36232186 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36231274 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36231274
- NotCamelCase 3y ago
  Wait, you don't default to presume that anyone online whose immediate response on anything is 'What about X?' is not a troll? Wow!
ShroudedNight 3y ago
What redeeming value do these regimes have if US foreign policy constitutes a seemingly strict _upper bound_ on how ethically these countries must behave? "If the US' worst is your best, what's your point!?"
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  In this scenario, the three men harassing this family are China's best?
youreincorrect 3y ago
[flagged]
- dang 3y ago
  I agree with you in principle and have often made a similar argument (https://hn.algolia.com/?query=whataboutism%20by:dang&dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=whataboutism%20by:dang&dateRan...), but you broke the site guidelines badly with the name-calling and swipes here. Could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting to HN? Your comment would have been much better without the first and last sentences.
- ShroudedNight 3y ago
  If a party is arguing a position of moral superiority, and respond to any seeming demonstrations of moral failings with 'you do it too', it's not obvious to me why their rhetorical counter-party has any reason not to view their argument as specious at best. Unless one can provide compelling evidence that the regimes held up are unambiguously morally superior, I think it's perfectly reasonable to consider those arguing as degrading the communications channel and thus actively hostile to quality discourse.
  - throwaway742 3y ago
    If the bad things they do are things that everyone does, but they do other things better would they not still be morally superior?
  - deciplex 3y ago
    Are tankies Marxist? I would assert that they'd have to be - and Marxists aren't making the case for their ideas out of some sense of moral superiority. The good ones aren't anyway. China (and other communist states) aren't morally superior they are simply superior: they have harnessed the power of capital accumulation that capitalism provides while retaining the ability to move to more advanced relations of production once appropriate. China is "winning" and will continue to win, not because they are more virtuous, but because they can move on to the next thing while we're stuck with end-stage capitalism and all the rentierism that comes with it, apparently forever.
GloomyBoots 3y ago
I kind of feel the same as your friend. Whataboutism is thrown about like a pejorative, but if I’m playing cards with a table of cheaters, I’m going to start cheating, or I’m going to get cleaned out. If someone tries to call me out, it’s fair to ask him to roll up his own sleeve. And this is a game that you can’t just walk away from.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  > And this is a game that you can’t just walk away from. Why not?
  - GloomyBoots 3y ago
    Because this is where the analogy ends. To quote one of the greatest nation-builders in recent memory, “This is not a game of cards, this is your life and mine.” The game doesn’t end. There’s no table to leave. Everything you have is always up for grabs. Not playing is just forfeiting.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Plenty of people 'opt-out' from the societies that we have built.
      - GloomyBoots 3y ago
        I’m not sure we’re even discussing the same thing. Are you talking about individuals opting out of society at large? Because that’s something else entirely. I’d still disagree, though.
deciplex 3y ago
I'm a "tankie" and my MO is to point out the millions lifted out of poverty in communist China and the fact that the Chinese are apparently a lot happier with their government than Americans are with theirs. China is the workshop of the world and meanwhile much of the American heartland is a fentanyl-addicted hellscape with totally neglected physical and institutional infrastructure. That's pretty much all you have to do: material circumstances trump all and any communist understands this. Of course China does spook shit. What are they supposed to do: refuse to do intelligence out of some misguided sense of morality so the CIA has free rein to do whatever they want, wherever they want, whenever they want? You might as well just assert that China's bad because they refuse to get owned by US intelligence - it's an equivalent sentiment.
- irusensei 3y ago
  The country you are simping runs literal concentration camps.
- ch4s3 3y ago
  > I'm a "tankie" and my MO is to point out the millions lifted out of poverty in communist China Only after Deng's market based reforms in the 1980s. What do you have to say for their campaign of ethnic cleansing?
  - nindalf 3y ago
    During the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, Comrade deciplex was telling the cadres “lads, just wait till Mao kicks the bucket and Deng takes over. I’m telling you, the kid is special!”
    - ch4s3 3y ago
      Ahh yes the “Great Leap Forward”, the social experiment with a death toll of nearly 50 million. What a fantastic poverty relief program. The efficiency in murdering intellectuals and burning historical artifacts would make any ISIS commander blush.
  - 3y ago

[flagged]

Yup! > Wang Wenbin, a spokesman for the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, accused the Justice Department on Friday of “slanders and smears,” adding that transnational repression “is an allegation that best matches the U.S.’s own practices.” Looks like the official response from the Chinese government is whataboutism.

pdntspa 3y ago

What's a tankie? These people? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie

chongli 3y ago
[flagged]
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  > Stereotypically college-educated This seems unlikely, as we all know that the more education a person receives, the more informed they are, the more capable of rational assessment of the world around them.
  - philomath_mn 3y ago
    I have not found this to be true. In an idealized case, I'd agree, but our institutions don't seem to be emphasizing "rational assessment" as an important skill. In fact there may be a slightly negative correlation because some experts spend so much time on their pet-topic that they end up rationalizing why their preferred evidence is better than the contradicting evidence (basically boosted confirmation bias)
  - chongli 3y ago
    This seems unlikely, as we all know that the more education a person receives, the more informed they are, the more capable of rational assessment of the world around them. I don't know how to say this without sounding glib, but I honestly cannot tell if your comment is sarcasm. Poe's law [1] applies. There are tons of college-educated people who are utterly incapable of critical thinking. They parrot what their radical professors told them. They don't know anything about statistics or philosophy or how to rationally criticize an argument. They just repeat talking anti-Western talking points. For them, the grass is greener on the other side of the world. They've never actually tried to live there, let alone talk to people from the authoritarian countries they idolize. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
    - EA-3167 3y ago
      I use a very simple heuristic when talking to that sort of person: "Why are people fleeing from your alleged paradise to an alleged criminal state? Why not the other way around? Get back to me when large numbers of Americans are fleeing to China to escape tyranny at home, search for new and better opportunities, etc."
      - atlantic 3y ago
        At the moment, we're seeing large numbers of older Americans settling in Europe, to flee political conditions in the US. So no, it's not unique to China.
      - LexiMax 3y ago
        > Get back to me when large numbers of Americans are fleeing to China to escape tyranny at home. This is actually happening here in the states: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/06/19/transgender-care-bans-cause-families-flee-other-states/70330832007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/06/19/transg... Depending on how the next few elections swing these families might not be safe anywhere in the continental US. They wouldn't be any safer in China, but this kind of tyranny can and does happen here at home.
        NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
        [flagged]
        LexiMax 3y ago
        > Insane people want insane things occasionally The area of gender-affirming care is and has been well studied in both adults and teenagers by accredited doctors and pediatricians, and the preponderance of the evidence is firmly in the "pro" category. What trans-women truly want, aside from leading a happy and fulfilling life, is to continue to have access to the health care they need for survival, and for people with the ears of politicians to stop threatening them with either death or forced detransition. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cpac-speaker-transgender-people-eradicated-1234690924/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cpac-spe...
  - 6510 3y ago
    There is this funny thing on wikipedia where highly educated people contribute a lot to articles in their field then accidentally end up on the wrong page and turn into the worse possible childish troll. Bit like the cliche joke about HN: Computer science makes people think they are an expert in all fields. Only without the civility.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

> you’re naive if you think the West doesn’t do this This is used constantly here as well. When I ask for evidence I'm naive, stupid, etc. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36232186 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36232186 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36231274 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36231274

NotCamelCase 3y ago
Wait, you don't default to presume that anyone online whose immediate response on anything is 'What about X?' is not a troll? Wow!

ShroudedNight 3y ago

What redeeming value do these regimes have if US foreign policy constitutes a seemingly strict _upper bound_ on how ethically these countries must behave? "If the US' worst is your best, what's your point!?"

whimsicalism 3y ago
In this scenario, the three men harassing this family are China's best?

youreincorrect 3y ago

[flagged]

dang 3y ago
I agree with you in principle and have often made a similar argument (https://hn.algolia.com/?query=whataboutism%20by:dang&dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=whataboutism%20by:dang&dateRan...), but you broke the site guidelines badly with the name-calling and swipes here. Could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting to HN? Your comment would have been much better without the first and last sentences.
ShroudedNight 3y ago
If a party is arguing a position of moral superiority, and respond to any seeming demonstrations of moral failings with 'you do it too', it's not obvious to me why their rhetorical counter-party has any reason not to view their argument as specious at best. Unless one can provide compelling evidence that the regimes held up are unambiguously morally superior, I think it's perfectly reasonable to consider those arguing as degrading the communications channel and thus actively hostile to quality discourse.
- throwaway742 3y ago
  If the bad things they do are things that everyone does, but they do other things better would they not still be morally superior?
- deciplex 3y ago
  Are tankies Marxist? I would assert that they'd have to be - and Marxists aren't making the case for their ideas out of some sense of moral superiority. The good ones aren't anyway. China (and other communist states) aren't morally superior they are simply superior: they have harnessed the power of capital accumulation that capitalism provides while retaining the ability to move to more advanced relations of production once appropriate. China is "winning" and will continue to win, not because they are more virtuous, but because they can move on to the next thing while we're stuck with end-stage capitalism and all the rentierism that comes with it, apparently forever.

GloomyBoots 3y ago

I kind of feel the same as your friend. Whataboutism is thrown about like a pejorative, but if I’m playing cards with a table of cheaters, I’m going to start cheating, or I’m going to get cleaned out. If someone tries to call me out, it’s fair to ask him to roll up his own sleeve. And this is a game that you can’t just walk away from.

jacquesm 3y ago
> And this is a game that you can’t just walk away from. Why not?
- GloomyBoots 3y ago
  Because this is where the analogy ends. To quote one of the greatest nation-builders in recent memory, “This is not a game of cards, this is your life and mine.” The game doesn’t end. There’s no table to leave. Everything you have is always up for grabs. Not playing is just forfeiting.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Plenty of people 'opt-out' from the societies that we have built.
    - GloomyBoots 3y ago
      I’m not sure we’re even discussing the same thing. Are you talking about individuals opting out of society at large? Because that’s something else entirely. I’d still disagree, though.

deciplex 3y ago

I'm a "tankie" and my MO is to point out the millions lifted out of poverty in communist China and the fact that the Chinese are apparently a lot happier with their government than Americans are with theirs. China is the workshop of the world and meanwhile much of the American heartland is a fentanyl-addicted hellscape with totally neglected physical and institutional infrastructure. That's pretty much all you have to do: material circumstances trump all and any communist understands this. Of course China does spook shit. What are they supposed to do: refuse to do intelligence out of some misguided sense of morality so the CIA has free rein to do whatever they want, wherever they want, whenever they want? You might as well just assert that China's bad because they refuse to get owned by US intelligence - it's an equivalent sentiment.

irusensei 3y ago
The country you are simping runs literal concentration camps.
ch4s3 3y ago
> I'm a "tankie" and my MO is to point out the millions lifted out of poverty in communist China Only after Deng's market based reforms in the 1980s. What do you have to say for their campaign of ethnic cleansing?
- nindalf 3y ago
  During the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, Comrade deciplex was telling the cadres “lads, just wait till Mao kicks the bucket and Deng takes over. I’m telling you, the kid is special!”
  - ch4s3 3y ago
    Ahh yes the “Great Leap Forward”, the social experiment with a death toll of nearly 50 million. What a fantastic poverty relief program. The efficiency in murdering intellectuals and burning historical artifacts would make any ISIS commander blush.
- 3y ago