4 ms·

Also one other detail: There's a hell of a lot more money in the car 'fuel' industry than the car making business. R&D costs are way lower, you don't need that

Also one other detail: There's a hell of a lot more money in the car 'fuel' industry than the car making business. R&D costs are way lower, you don't need that many employees, and you can always charge these third party automakers more. Tesla is going to make bank off these adopters.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Most EVs charge at home most of the time, so there isn't that much money in the "fuel" industry, they are mostly needed for long distance trips (and so crowd up on holiday weekends), not daily driving.
- logifail 3y ago
  > Most EVs charge at home most of the time Umm, there's a significant chunk of the world's population who will likely never be able to charge at home, because they live in apartments and park on-street. "EV owners who live in apartment buildings and park on the street will rely heavily on public chargers—in 2021, 42 percent of European EV owners living in cities had no access to home charging points." https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/europes-ev-opportunity-and-the-charging-infrastructure-needed-to-meet-it https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/...
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    On street parking is very much allowed only in some countries, the biggest one being the USA, but much of western Europe it is disallowed (or at least, you pay for it by the hour). Many countries require proof of parking spot before they will let you even buy a car. Even in that case, it isn't hard for cities to put out L2 charging pylons at each on-street parking space. They can just combine it with street light infrastructure or whatever (they would also be able to monetize street parking at that point, which is inevitable anyways).
    - davrosthedalek 3y ago
      At least in Germany, most city areas where people live are "Anwohnerparken", so people who live on the street are allowed to park on the street, nobody else.
    - Marsymars 3y ago
      > Even in that case, it isn't hard for cities to put out L2 charging pylons at each on-street parking space. How does this work for physical logistics? e.g. I’m a two-car household that can’t practically reduce to a single car, with a driveway that only fits one car. (That my partner uses.) I street park in front of my house, and there’s street/sidewalk/lawn. The only place I can think of to put a charging station is in my lawn with some kind of arch over the sidewalk to reach my car. Also becomes problematic as street parking spots aren’t reserved. (I could potentially remove a tree from my front yard and pave over it to provide another parking space, but that’s not a very appealing solution.)
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Are your electric lines all buried? I guess if they are that would make it much more difficult. Otherwise, you have poles or something to keep the lines in the air. I'm just amazed America has so much free parking still. People buy houses, even if they have garages, they use the garage as storage and park their car on the street. Having lived in other countries where that simply can't happen, its like this country practically gives away parking spaces for free.
        Marsymars 3y ago
        Yes, utilities are all buried. Electrical doesn’t even come from the street side of the house, it comes in from a utility corridor behind my house. Also have a garage, but isn’t practical to park in it for various reasons, some more fixable than others. (It’s set up as a home gym which I view as essential for my health, it’s single car and parking in the driveway would block in the garage, it doesn’t have a floor drain or appropriate slope for draining which is fairly important for winter snowmelt, and it doesn’t have an automatic door opener.)
  - Wheen 3y ago
    > will rely heavily on public chargers Public chargers =/= DC fast chargers (like Tesla superchargers). I've already seen level 2 chargers that drop down from light posts in my city. Roll those out to every light post near apartment buildings and throw in some curb-side stalls if you need more capacity. Most people won't need to charge every night with 200/300mi+ range, so you won't need a 1:1 mapping of chargers to cars. This way, people charge passively overnight at stations that are cheaper to build than DC fast chargers.
    - logifail 3y ago
      > Roll those out to every light post near apartment buildings and throw in some curb-side stalls if you need more capacity Don't forget your local electrical grid will likely need a significant upgrade too. An LED streetlamp probably draws a couple of hundred watts, tops.
      - axus 3y ago
        Apparently LED can use less than 100W, and before LEDs streetlights would use 250-400W . The really bright sodium ones were 1000W, but those probably weren't over your neighborhood sidewalk. https://pacificlamp.com/street-light.asp https://pacificlamp.com/street-light.asp
      - com2kid 3y ago
        Local electrical grids are already being upgraded due to the increasing need for AC thanks to climate change.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - two_handfuls 3y ago
    True but these people mostly don’t go to superchargers, they go to slower & cheaper chargers near their apartment or work.
  - earthboundkid 3y ago
    In the US, most apartment dwellers park in a garage, which can and will be retrofitted with chargers. Street parking is the major challenge. In Park Slope Brooklyn, I often see a lone cable coming out of a brownstone out to a Tesla on the street. :-)
    - thatguy0900 3y ago
      What is your stats for most apartment people Park in a garage? Where I live garages cost a hefty amount extra and the apartment complex doesn't even have enough for more than a quarter of the residents anyway
      - earthboundkid 3y ago
        Most of the US has aggressive parking minimums.
        thatguy0900 3y ago
        We have plenty of outside parking. I've just never seen majority garage parking
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        LA is notorious for their parking minimums (two car spots for a two bedroom apartment), Seattle in contrast lacks parking minimums at all.
      - bombcar 3y ago
        https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-958-january-2-2017-sixty-three-percent-all-housing-units-have-garage-or-carport https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-958-january-2-2017... It's lower for renters (who are more likely in an apartment), but it's still overall decently high. Every apartment I've lived in had a garage or carport that could easily have had a charger installed (and probably does, by now).
  - chris222 3y ago
    Yah this is where people get stuck in their way of thinking about current technology limitations. Really fast <10m charge times are only about 5 years away which means people will use DC fast chargers like gas stations.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      I wouldn't make investment decisions on that kind of prediction. Slower (cheaper) chargers will take much of the load, and unless outlawed, are going to heavily bite into fuel station margins. The best they can do is charge more for DC fast charging when it is needed (during holiday weekends).
  - 6DM 3y ago
    Also, surprisingly there are HoA's that are fighting people that want to install an outlet for their car e.g. town home owners without a garage.
    - wing-_-nuts 3y ago
      I offered to pay for a charger to be installed in my spot, and the hoa board flat out refused. Granted, they're old, and are probably still upset about the switch to unleaded gasoline...
      - bombcar 3y ago
        Keep badgering them each and every month/year until they give in. Some states are moving to make it illegal for HOAs to prohibit it the way the FCC did with satellite dishes.
- jdminhbg 3y ago
  Sure, although Tesla is in this market as well, with solar panels, battery packs, and wall chargers.
hinkley 3y ago
The latest rounds of gas convenience stores have gotten more square footage than earlier generations. I suspect they are anticipating indoor seating for charging customers at some point. I’ve also started seeing joint ventures where it’s a proper coffee stand or in one case I can think of an A&W root beer. Gas stations tend to be physically separated from pastimes (what Burger King owner wants diesel fumes in their store?), and someone at least is hedging their bets that won’t always be the case. I don’t know if they’ll see the fruits but their kids absolutely will.
- WaitWaitWha 3y ago
  That is a very astute observation! Thank you. I have wondered why more and more convenience stores are getting into not just quick, pick-up snacks, but full blown fast-food style sit down environment. Recently when I drove around in the USA, I saw Sheetz, Wawa, Royal Farms, Rutter's, and High's. These are substantially larger with lots of amenities compared to the standard gas stations. Nothing compared to Buc-ee's, but still getting up there.
  - earthboundkid 3y ago
    > Recently when I drove around in the USA, I saw Sheetz, Wawa, Royal Farms, Rutter's, and High's. So you drove from Philly to Pittsburgh?
  - chris222 3y ago
    Sheetz, Wawa and Royal Farms all already have Tesla chargers. Wawa has a location in Virginia with no gas pumps but Tesla chargers. So yes they are already planning for this future.
  - evanelias 3y ago
    Not sure about the others, but at least for Wawa and Royal Farms: many locations have offered fast-food style options for a very long time, like 25+ years, maybe more. Wawa has always been known for quality. I remember years back when there was a romaine lettuce shortage, they put up deeply apologetic signs about how they're temporarily substituting iceberg lettuce in their sandwiches. Meanwhile Royal Farms is known for their fried chicken. Although, the one near my college in Baltimore was more known for being a frequent target of robberies :/ On a road trip, I recently ate at a Sheetz in central PA that had Electrify America chargers. Good food selection, similar to Wawa. Not the best overall experience though -- an unhinged lunatic flipped out at me for leaving a single unused napkin on my table (which lacked a napkin dispenser, and the place had no recycling can). I avoided that charging location for my return trip...

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

Most EVs charge at home most of the time, so there isn't that much money in the "fuel" industry, they are mostly needed for long distance trips (and so crowd up on holiday weekends), not daily driving.

logifail 3y ago
> Most EVs charge at home most of the time Umm, there's a significant chunk of the world's population who will likely never be able to charge at home, because they live in apartments and park on-street. "EV owners who live in apartment buildings and park on the street will rely heavily on public chargers—in 2021, 42 percent of European EV owners living in cities had no access to home charging points." https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/europes-ev-opportunity-and-the-charging-infrastructure-needed-to-meet-it https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/...
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  On street parking is very much allowed only in some countries, the biggest one being the USA, but much of western Europe it is disallowed (or at least, you pay for it by the hour). Many countries require proof of parking spot before they will let you even buy a car. Even in that case, it isn't hard for cities to put out L2 charging pylons at each on-street parking space. They can just combine it with street light infrastructure or whatever (they would also be able to monetize street parking at that point, which is inevitable anyways).
  - davrosthedalek 3y ago
    At least in Germany, most city areas where people live are "Anwohnerparken", so people who live on the street are allowed to park on the street, nobody else.
  - Marsymars 3y ago
    > Even in that case, it isn't hard for cities to put out L2 charging pylons at each on-street parking space. How does this work for physical logistics? e.g. I’m a two-car household that can’t practically reduce to a single car, with a driveway that only fits one car. (That my partner uses.) I street park in front of my house, and there’s street/sidewalk/lawn. The only place I can think of to put a charging station is in my lawn with some kind of arch over the sidewalk to reach my car. Also becomes problematic as street parking spots aren’t reserved. (I could potentially remove a tree from my front yard and pave over it to provide another parking space, but that’s not a very appealing solution.)
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Are your electric lines all buried? I guess if they are that would make it much more difficult. Otherwise, you have poles or something to keep the lines in the air. I'm just amazed America has so much free parking still. People buy houses, even if they have garages, they use the garage as storage and park their car on the street. Having lived in other countries where that simply can't happen, its like this country practically gives away parking spaces for free.
      - Marsymars 3y ago
        Yes, utilities are all buried. Electrical doesn’t even come from the street side of the house, it comes in from a utility corridor behind my house. Also have a garage, but isn’t practical to park in it for various reasons, some more fixable than others. (It’s set up as a home gym which I view as essential for my health, it’s single car and parking in the driveway would block in the garage, it doesn’t have a floor drain or appropriate slope for draining which is fairly important for winter snowmelt, and it doesn’t have an automatic door opener.)
- Wheen 3y ago
  > will rely heavily on public chargers Public chargers =/= DC fast chargers (like Tesla superchargers). I've already seen level 2 chargers that drop down from light posts in my city. Roll those out to every light post near apartment buildings and throw in some curb-side stalls if you need more capacity. Most people won't need to charge every night with 200/300mi+ range, so you won't need a 1:1 mapping of chargers to cars. This way, people charge passively overnight at stations that are cheaper to build than DC fast chargers.
  - logifail 3y ago
    > Roll those out to every light post near apartment buildings and throw in some curb-side stalls if you need more capacity Don't forget your local electrical grid will likely need a significant upgrade too. An LED streetlamp probably draws a couple of hundred watts, tops.
    - axus 3y ago
      Apparently LED can use less than 100W, and before LEDs streetlights would use 250-400W . The really bright sodium ones were 1000W, but those probably weren't over your neighborhood sidewalk. https://pacificlamp.com/street-light.asp https://pacificlamp.com/street-light.asp
    - com2kid 3y ago
      Local electrical grids are already being upgraded due to the increasing need for AC thanks to climate change.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- two_handfuls 3y ago
  True but these people mostly don’t go to superchargers, they go to slower & cheaper chargers near their apartment or work.
- earthboundkid 3y ago
  In the US, most apartment dwellers park in a garage, which can and will be retrofitted with chargers. Street parking is the major challenge. In Park Slope Brooklyn, I often see a lone cable coming out of a brownstone out to a Tesla on the street. :-)
  - thatguy0900 3y ago
    What is your stats for most apartment people Park in a garage? Where I live garages cost a hefty amount extra and the apartment complex doesn't even have enough for more than a quarter of the residents anyway
    - earthboundkid 3y ago
      Most of the US has aggressive parking minimums.
      - thatguy0900 3y ago
        We have plenty of outside parking. I've just never seen majority garage parking
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        LA is notorious for their parking minimums (two car spots for a two bedroom apartment), Seattle in contrast lacks parking minimums at all.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-958-january-2-2017-sixty-three-percent-all-housing-units-have-garage-or-carport https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-958-january-2-2017... It's lower for renters (who are more likely in an apartment), but it's still overall decently high. Every apartment I've lived in had a garage or carport that could easily have had a charger installed (and probably does, by now).
- chris222 3y ago
  Yah this is where people get stuck in their way of thinking about current technology limitations. Really fast <10m charge times are only about 5 years away which means people will use DC fast chargers like gas stations.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    I wouldn't make investment decisions on that kind of prediction. Slower (cheaper) chargers will take much of the load, and unless outlawed, are going to heavily bite into fuel station margins. The best they can do is charge more for DC fast charging when it is needed (during holiday weekends).
- 6DM 3y ago
  Also, surprisingly there are HoA's that are fighting people that want to install an outlet for their car e.g. town home owners without a garage.
  - wing-_-nuts 3y ago
    I offered to pay for a charger to be installed in my spot, and the hoa board flat out refused. Granted, they're old, and are probably still upset about the switch to unleaded gasoline...
    - bombcar 3y ago
      Keep badgering them each and every month/year until they give in. Some states are moving to make it illegal for HOAs to prohibit it the way the FCC did with satellite dishes.
jdminhbg 3y ago
Sure, although Tesla is in this market as well, with solar panels, battery packs, and wall chargers.

hinkley 3y ago

The latest rounds of gas convenience stores have gotten more square footage than earlier generations. I suspect they are anticipating indoor seating for charging customers at some point. I’ve also started seeing joint ventures where it’s a proper coffee stand or in one case I can think of an A&W root beer. Gas stations tend to be physically separated from pastimes (what Burger King owner wants diesel fumes in their store?), and someone at least is hedging their bets that won’t always be the case. I don’t know if they’ll see the fruits but their kids absolutely will.

WaitWaitWha 3y ago
That is a very astute observation! Thank you. I have wondered why more and more convenience stores are getting into not just quick, pick-up snacks, but full blown fast-food style sit down environment. Recently when I drove around in the USA, I saw Sheetz, Wawa, Royal Farms, Rutter's, and High's. These are substantially larger with lots of amenities compared to the standard gas stations. Nothing compared to Buc-ee's, but still getting up there.
- earthboundkid 3y ago
  > Recently when I drove around in the USA, I saw Sheetz, Wawa, Royal Farms, Rutter's, and High's. So you drove from Philly to Pittsburgh?
- chris222 3y ago
  Sheetz, Wawa and Royal Farms all already have Tesla chargers. Wawa has a location in Virginia with no gas pumps but Tesla chargers. So yes they are already planning for this future.
- evanelias 3y ago
  Not sure about the others, but at least for Wawa and Royal Farms: many locations have offered fast-food style options for a very long time, like 25+ years, maybe more. Wawa has always been known for quality. I remember years back when there was a romaine lettuce shortage, they put up deeply apologetic signs about how they're temporarily substituting iceberg lettuce in their sandwiches. Meanwhile Royal Farms is known for their fried chicken. Although, the one near my college in Baltimore was more known for being a frequent target of robberies :/ On a road trip, I recently ate at a Sheetz in central PA that had Electrify America chargers. Good food selection, similar to Wawa. Not the best overall experience though -- an unhinged lunatic flipped out at me for leaving a single unused napkin on my table (which lacked a napkin dispenser, and the place had no recycling can). I avoided that charging location for my return trip...