5 ms·

For me the main problem with indie games is the amount of value you get for your money. Games are software, if you sell 10 copies or 10 million, it’s basically

by Aaargh20318 3y ago

For me the main problem with indie games is the amount of value you get for your money. Games are software, if you sell 10 copies or 10 million, it’s basically the same amount of work. That is: no matter how big your development budget is, or how many you expect to sell, 100% of that budget goes into developing 1 copy of the game. However, the actual budget does scale with the number of expected sales. A game that is expected to sell 5M copies is going to have a much larger budget than a game that is expected to sell 10k copies. Add to that the lower price of indie games and there is a huge budget difference. The end result of this is that as a gamer I can choose between a €20 indie game representing maybe €500k of development effort, or an €80 AAA game that represents €200M of development effort. The AAA game may cost me 4 times as much, but it gives me 400 times the value.

ilyt 3y ago
> The AAA game may cost me 4 times as much, but it gives me 400 times the value. So what non-multiplayer AAA game you played 400 times as long than an 10 hour indie experience ? Or did you had 400x the fun playing it? That's very MBA way to look at it. Game's budget is only vaguely correlated with how good it is as a game. Sure prettier blah blah blah, but we had plenty of big games coming out mediocre and just being bought coz of market inertia of average non-internet-scouring user buying next AAA title from big publisher and not even looking at the smaller ones or indies. Like, if I look at the top amount of spent time in game (the "value" per spend money) it's some small dev management games (Factorio, Banished, Rimworld, X4), the type of game that most AAA developers just refuse to make in the first place. Most of "singleplayer story driven ones" I've played also fall out of AAA space because while 20 years ago industry was busy making games like Baldur's gate or Fallout, now anything similar only happens in sub-AAA space.
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  Outright play time isn't the right way to measure the value of a game (or any other piece of art or entertainment) unless your sole purpose is to spend time. I value Half Life 2 hundreds of times higher than skribbl.io even though I probably have more hours in the latter.
- Aaargh20318 3y ago
  > if I look at the top amount of spent time in game (the "value" per spend money) it's some small dev management games (Factorio, Banished, Rimworld, X4) I don’t care for those kinds of games at all. That’s the problem with most indie games: they rely solely on gameplay. Me, personally, I’m more into story driven games, and that additional budget buys you better writers, actors, mo-cap, etc. > the type of game that most AAA developers just refuse to make in the first place. Most of "singleplayer story driven ones" I've played also fall out of AAA space I’m mainly a PlayStation gamer and they release a lot of story driven single-player games. It’s the may reason I stick to PS. God of War, Horizon, Uncharted, TLoU, etc. are all amazing games and impossible to make on a small budget.
  - ykonstant 3y ago
    > I’m more into story driven games I have yet to see a story as good as the Blackwell series. Perhaps you have made up your mind that indie games do not have good story lines, so you are not looking for them. I don't know.
    - Aaargh20318 3y ago
      I had a quick look and it looks really low-budget. The thing is, I have limited time to play games, so I can be very selective what I spend that time on. This means I can limit myself to games that do everything right, not just one thing. That means story, but also production value. Good acting, good mo-cap, good graphic, a good sound track, etc. Why would I spend the limited time I have for gaming on games that don't check all the boxes ? There may not be a lot of games that do, but there are enough for me to only play those kinds of games.
      - stereolambda 3y ago
        Just for another perspective, there is a limited space of games story- and gameplaywise that can get major funding. If you want something outside this, you have to go indie. You can be also satisfied with the AAA games. Just as there are great independent films and Hollywood classics. They should be able to coexist in the market. But honestly I don't play AAA titles because they are expensive (don't feel worth it for me, so similar argument as yours), and are designed for long immersive sessions and not 20 mins here and there. There are secondary factors like Linux compatibility and disliking the companies. For story and visuals I prefer films. Second hand I hear that mainstream titles are either designed stupid easy, or in a small niche with spiteful level of difficulty, but this is probably exaggerated sentiment.
mejutoco 3y ago
This is assuming that the more money is spent in development the more value you get out of the game. That is a big assumption, maybe true for very established game genres.
raincole 3y ago
Your logic is 100% correct until you realize the only conclusion it drives to is: there is no small teams that make software, TV shows, comic books, anime, movies, books, and video games that can survive. The fact is game taste is quite subjective and different people value different things.
laeri 3y ago
I have a different experience. I can't play most of the AAA games as their gameplay seems quite simple in a lot of cases and they often follow common structures. Indie games are radically different in a lot of cases as they usually take more risks and just the personality of the creator(s) shines through. My most favoure genre is roguelikes/roguelites which is just not present in AAA titles.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 3y ago
  Have you played Scavenger SV4? Might not quite be the kind of thing you're into but it is definitely something the developer put a lot of time into making interesting.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 3y ago
> The AAA game may cost me 4 times as much, but it gives me 400 times the value. I... guess? If your only calculation of value is how much money was spent making the latest edition of a cookie cutter experience like 90% of AAA games are (because execs aren't willing to risk budget coloring outside the lines). And frankly I find that pretty sad, but looking at sales numbers I guess that's the majority of the gaming market.
Etherlord87 3y ago
You're right, this is a problem. However you can look at the same logic from a different perspective: If you're playing an AAA game, you're playing a game made for everyone - and therefore for no one. This is why some people (including me) aren't fans of AAA games. Imagine the world (future) where material costs of most things are insignificant and majority of the cost of your food will be paying the designers of this food. Would you want to eat the same, bland (can't be too spicy, can't have particular ingredients-allergens, has to be safe for children…) stuff everyone else eats? Or would you develop a taste for something more niche? Due to high budgets, the companies also don't want to take risks, that's why indie games are innovative (and that's why indie games fail more often?).
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  To be honest it depends on the person. If you don't make food a large part of your life you will stick with the "easy" food. Maybe every now and then you dabble in some Gordon Ramsey, but it's just there as a means. That's how modern gaming is. There's a lot of "free" stuff out there, but outside of Hogwarts Academy those players aren't looking for niche premium games. So you're no longer catching thst general audience, rather those seeking that certain design of game.
prmoustache 3y ago
And you forget the depreciation. 20$ small indie game compete with 4 or 5y old AAA games with much bigger content that are now sold at 20$.
japhib 3y ago
https://twitter.com/TylerGlaiel/status/1670853553026658304?s=20 https://twitter.com/TylerGlaiel/status/1670853553026658304?s...

ilyt 3y ago

> The AAA game may cost me 4 times as much, but it gives me 400 times the value. So what non-multiplayer AAA game you played 400 times as long than an 10 hour indie experience ? Or did you had 400x the fun playing it? That's very MBA way to look at it. Game's budget is only vaguely correlated with how good it is as a game. Sure prettier blah blah blah, but we had plenty of big games coming out mediocre and just being bought coz of market inertia of average non-internet-scouring user buying next AAA title from big publisher and not even looking at the smaller ones or indies. Like, if I look at the top amount of spent time in game (the "value" per spend money) it's some small dev management games (Factorio, Banished, Rimworld, X4), the type of game that most AAA developers just refuse to make in the first place. Most of "singleplayer story driven ones" I've played also fall out of AAA space because while 20 years ago industry was busy making games like Baldur's gate or Fallout, now anything similar only happens in sub-AAA space.

mvdtnz 3y ago
Outright play time isn't the right way to measure the value of a game (or any other piece of art or entertainment) unless your sole purpose is to spend time. I value Half Life 2 hundreds of times higher than skribbl.io even though I probably have more hours in the latter.
Aaargh20318 3y ago
> if I look at the top amount of spent time in game (the "value" per spend money) it's some small dev management games (Factorio, Banished, Rimworld, X4) I don’t care for those kinds of games at all. That’s the problem with most indie games: they rely solely on gameplay. Me, personally, I’m more into story driven games, and that additional budget buys you better writers, actors, mo-cap, etc. > the type of game that most AAA developers just refuse to make in the first place. Most of "singleplayer story driven ones" I've played also fall out of AAA space I’m mainly a PlayStation gamer and they release a lot of story driven single-player games. It’s the may reason I stick to PS. God of War, Horizon, Uncharted, TLoU, etc. are all amazing games and impossible to make on a small budget.
- ykonstant 3y ago
  > I’m more into story driven games I have yet to see a story as good as the Blackwell series. Perhaps you have made up your mind that indie games do not have good story lines, so you are not looking for them. I don't know.
  - Aaargh20318 3y ago
    I had a quick look and it looks really low-budget. The thing is, I have limited time to play games, so I can be very selective what I spend that time on. This means I can limit myself to games that do everything right, not just one thing. That means story, but also production value. Good acting, good mo-cap, good graphic, a good sound track, etc. Why would I spend the limited time I have for gaming on games that don't check all the boxes ? There may not be a lot of games that do, but there are enough for me to only play those kinds of games.
    - stereolambda 3y ago
      Just for another perspective, there is a limited space of games story- and gameplaywise that can get major funding. If you want something outside this, you have to go indie. You can be also satisfied with the AAA games. Just as there are great independent films and Hollywood classics. They should be able to coexist in the market. But honestly I don't play AAA titles because they are expensive (don't feel worth it for me, so similar argument as yours), and are designed for long immersive sessions and not 20 mins here and there. There are secondary factors like Linux compatibility and disliking the companies. For story and visuals I prefer films. Second hand I hear that mainstream titles are either designed stupid easy, or in a small niche with spiteful level of difficulty, but this is probably exaggerated sentiment.

mejutoco 3y ago

This is assuming that the more money is spent in development the more value you get out of the game. That is a big assumption, maybe true for very established game genres.

raincole 3y ago

Your logic is 100% correct until you realize the only conclusion it drives to is: there is no small teams that make software, TV shows, comic books, anime, movies, books, and video games that can survive. The fact is game taste is quite subjective and different people value different things.

laeri 3y ago

I have a different experience. I can't play most of the AAA games as their gameplay seems quite simple in a lot of cases and they often follow common structures. Indie games are radically different in a lot of cases as they usually take more risks and just the personality of the creator(s) shines through. My most favoure genre is roguelikes/roguelites which is just not present in AAA titles.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 3y ago
Have you played Scavenger SV4? Might not quite be the kind of thing you're into but it is definitely something the developer put a lot of time into making interesting.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 3y ago

> The AAA game may cost me 4 times as much, but it gives me 400 times the value. I... guess? If your only calculation of value is how much money was spent making the latest edition of a cookie cutter experience like 90% of AAA games are (because execs aren't willing to risk budget coloring outside the lines). And frankly I find that pretty sad, but looking at sales numbers I guess that's the majority of the gaming market.

Etherlord87 3y ago

You're right, this is a problem. However you can look at the same logic from a different perspective: If you're playing an AAA game, you're playing a game made for everyone - and therefore for no one. This is why some people (including me) aren't fans of AAA games. Imagine the world (future) where material costs of most things are insignificant and majority of the cost of your food will be paying the designers of this food. Would you want to eat the same, bland (can't be too spicy, can't have particular ingredients-allergens, has to be safe for children…) stuff everyone else eats? Or would you develop a taste for something more niche? Due to high budgets, the companies also don't want to take risks, that's why indie games are innovative (and that's why indie games fail more often?).

johnnyanmac 3y ago
To be honest it depends on the person. If you don't make food a large part of your life you will stick with the "easy" food. Maybe every now and then you dabble in some Gordon Ramsey, but it's just there as a means. That's how modern gaming is. There's a lot of "free" stuff out there, but outside of Hogwarts Academy those players aren't looking for niche premium games. So you're no longer catching thst general audience, rather those seeking that certain design of game.

prmoustache 3y ago

And you forget the depreciation. 20$ small indie game compete with 4 or 5y old AAA games with much bigger content that are now sold at 20$.

japhib 3y ago

https://twitter.com/TylerGlaiel/status/1670853553026658304?s=20 https://twitter.com/TylerGlaiel/status/1670853553026658304?s...