8 ms·

Why I started (and stopped) making games

84 points by ingve 3y ago

wincy 3y ago
When I was 13-14 there was a brief period where I was making levels for Jedi Knight: Dark Forces 2. I had a “clan” encouraging me to make us our own level and it was simple enough that at 13 I could listen to some Disturbed on my headphone while learning how to use the tooling and follow tutorials to make stuff and get things up and running. It had a basic scripting language (cog files) that you’d use to make elevators move and things like that. You’d attach these cog files to in game objects and it was a very good intro to games and level design. I think that was definitely my foot in the door for thinking like a coder. Unfortunately Unreal Tournament became extremely popular right after this and thirteen year old me couldn’t wrap his head around C++, and didn’t have anyone to help me, so my learning journey ended for about 12 years or so until I learned to code in my mid 20s. I’ve still never picked up video game design again, despite consuming them a decent amount. Stuff just got too complicated.
- tjpnz 3y ago
  I have such fond memories of that game, specifically the single player. It was the first time I ever felt truly engrossed by a game storyline. I even loved the FMVs which felt like the perfect blend of CG and live action back then - I later learned that the saber duels were the first captured on film since Return of the Jedi. Such a shame that it was passed up for porting to other platforms. Would love to play it on my Switch like I can the followup.
- yomlica8 3y ago
  I was also fairly obsessed with modding this game, which is strange because I'm not really a massive Star Wars fan. The cog language (more or less C syntax) was far more powerful than the base game really made use of. I think the grappling hook mods really got me started though, the engine wasn't super modern but few games really sold the vertigo of wide open cliffs and pits like this one did. I like tinkering with it far more than I did playing it. Cog seemed almost bolted on and the base cogs really only were sort of complicated for weapon handling and scripted level events. But I remember making laser trip mines (and the ability to shoot the mines with a blaster), a crude rope for the grappling hook, reloading weapons, etc. By the time I moved on I was implementing A* pathfinding for a replacement AI written in cog. I'd switched to Mysteries of the Sith just to get access to more cog verbs.
- ceearrbee 3y ago
  Dark Forces 2, cog files! I haven't thought of any of this in years! We're very similar, it was my introduction to game editing - I was never a fan of DOOM, Quake or Unreal/Tournament. But, I played around so much with JKEdit, and even continued with Jedi Outcast. It was by far the most fun I had with modding a game until Morrowind came out years later. I really wish that modern games were as accessible, at least at a surface level - modding has fallen to the sidelines in recent years - I can't even think of the last game that came with an editor outside of a Bethesda game.
- eunoia 3y ago
  Battle.net also used to be great for learning your way around computers. Designed and released my first "game" via Starcraft's Map Editor, first "server" was a Battle.net chat bot hosted in my closet... First peek into how complex software works was map hacking Diablo 2... etc etc. I learned a ton from Battle.net.
prox 3y ago
Anyone here that makes games for fun or on the side?
- fncslothouber 3y ago
  Yup, for fun. Building a game from scratch almost from from the bottom. Starting with a CPU, sound-chip and graphics-chip (using an FPGA). On top of that a Forth system and on top of that a platform game. Lots of fun and a great learning experience.
- sk0g 3y ago
  Absolutely, currently remaking and old arcade game (SAMI) with a team that has skills beyond engineering, because engineering and a bit of guitar is about all I have time for :) It's a great way to learn a lot, and it has definitely helped me with how I approach problem solving and software design in my day job.
- pizza234 3y ago
  I did for a bit, but it's a bit tricky, in the sense that differently from other types of products, games have a very strong separation between the artistic and the engineering aspects. This has very significant consequences. If one works alone on a game, they may find that they keep solving technical problems, without actually producing a game, but rather, producing an engine. If one works in a team, and nobody takes a creative lead, the same thing happens - technical advancements in the game, but no content. In the right conditions (either a balanced team, or a single dev who enjoys both aspects), game development is fantastic - from the engineering perspective, game development is a very challenging (in an interesting way) field. But I think it's not easy to find the right context.
- trizoza 3y ago
  Yes, I made rotaboxes and posted here recently [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33718124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33718124]
- erremerre 3y ago
  I have started learning and have done a very unpolished pong to learn. I did write a blog entry here: https://blog.rmrubert.eu/posts/2023-06-17-making-my-first-game-another-pong-in-python/ https://blog.rmrubert.eu/posts/2023-06-17-making-my-first-ga... I do agree with this sentence on the article <<The meta stuff takes as much effort, if not more, than the core game. I mean the menus, instructions, release materials, API integrations for advertisements and high scoreboards, and so on.>> as the menu you can see in my game (which is very unpolished) took as much as the game itself.
insomagent 3y ago
The reason I stopped making games... The tooling! It takes way too long to open Unreal Engine, or to do anything within its UI, and Unity gives me "bad vibes" (technical term) any time I open it. I know these days there are other engines, but I started my programming journey by learning game engines, and perhaps I should have learned programming properly before jumping into game programming.
- lastangryman 3y ago
  You should try Godot. Open source and extremely lightweight compared to Unity and Unreal. It's pleasure to use, none of the baggage of the other engines. I'm a patron contributor. Fantastic for hobbyist tinkering and also viable for full blown commercial games. https://godotengine.org/ https://godotengine.org/
  - wilonth 3y ago
    Yeah Godot editor is snappy and smooth, unlike Unity and Unreal. However Godot's 3D and physics implementation leaves a lot to be desired. Not sure if Godot 4 solves those issues.
    - mackatap 3y ago
      For a solo indie dev it is far more than enough. There are solutions to any physics problems you encounter. The 3d in Godot 4 is quite beautiful
  - elefanten 3y ago
    Can you share any references for finding the top quality or best known games made using Godot? I haven’t looked in a while.
    - sunnybeetroot 3y ago
      There is a decent showcase page on their site https://godotengine.org/showcase/ https://godotengine.org/showcase/
phil917 3y ago
I developed/published mobile games for awhile during and immediately after college. I think my games saw somewhere in the ballpark of 500,000 downloads and I made "OK" income from them for 1 - 2 years (roughly on par with a minimum wage job in the US). I briefly considered going full-time into solo game dev. But once I got my first "real" job offer after college, I quickly let go of that idea. Many years later, as a SaaS founder now, I have a strong itch to get back into game development. One of my dream goals is to some day exit my company and then comfortably/leisurely "retire" into a career as a solo game dev.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  That is definitely not the world's worst plan. I've started building a tiny, rubbish Pong clone in PixiJS for my son to play with me, and it is pretty intoxicating.
chuan_l 3y ago
Its the " unknown - unknowns " that'll get you every time. From somebody who has an interest in game design , development and worked on a few released titles. Those games just don't look to be any fun ? Its a mistake that a lot of independent developers make : trying to make games , that have the semblance of classic games. Part of this comes from the learning process as well - it takes a lot more to create 3d content , rig it , animate it so on. Though my best advice is to look within yourself , and your own experience for the situations and narratives that resonate. Look at somebody like " Lucas Pope " who made " Papers Please " " Return of the Obra Dinn " after leaving a full time developer position at " Naughty Dog ". It seems Austin works with AI - assisted code , why not turn that into a game ? The world is already full of people trying to emulate Tarantino and Miyamoto. Be your own thing , be the next thing and your situation - process is all part of that. Just need to change the mindset a bit and turn your limitations into a different kind of expression. Then there's a lot of hard work !
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  Interesting how you advice is to not to emulate classic games while the author came to the opposite conclusion: >Chasing novelty for the sake of novelty is silly. Gameplay mechanics often don't work out the way you plan in your mind. I find that bottom-up design is much more effective. But I guess that's the thing about game design. There is no one true blue answer, and it ultimately comes down to how you approach problems in general. I'm guessing some are just really good at deeply analyzing a game and polishing up their own variation of that game, while others are better off learning concepts and then drawing their own experiences together rather than following a tight template. (Note: this ofc can vary even in the same person, from genre to genre. I'm sure some fighting game experts can design their own fighting game down to the number of frames per attack per character. but also can't figure out a basic game loop for an FPS.)
suddenclarity 3y ago
I created a handful of games at university, each taking a few months, and I'd say the biggest lesson was how little programming was involved. Programming new functionality would only take a few hours, but then I had to spend days on creating models, music, map design, environment, resources, menus, HUD.. Granted, we were tied by not being allowed to purchase assets due to copyright but even finding useable free assets took most of the dev time. I'm curious how AI will improve this but it's definitely something for programmers to have in mind when starting out. It looks so easy in tutorials/courses when they have an asset pack ready to go and can build the core game mechanics in a few hours. The reality is a little different.

84 points by ingve 3y ago

When I was 13-14 there was a brief period where I was making levels for Jedi Knight: Dark Forces 2. I had a “clan” encouraging me to make us our own level and it was simple enough that at 13 I could listen to some Disturbed on my headphone while learning how to use the tooling and follow tutorials to make stuff and get things up and running. It had a basic scripting language (cog files) that you’d use to make elevators move and things like that. You’d attach these cog files to in game objects and it was a very good intro to games and level design. I think that was definitely my foot in the door for thinking like a coder. Unfortunately Unreal Tournament became extremely popular right after this and thirteen year old me couldn’t wrap his head around C++, and didn’t have anyone to help me, so my learning journey ended for about 12 years or so until I learned to code in my mid 20s. I’ve still never picked up video game design again, despite consuming them a decent amount. Stuff just got too complicated.

tjpnz 3y ago
I have such fond memories of that game, specifically the single player. It was the first time I ever felt truly engrossed by a game storyline. I even loved the FMVs which felt like the perfect blend of CG and live action back then - I later learned that the saber duels were the first captured on film since Return of the Jedi. Such a shame that it was passed up for porting to other platforms. Would love to play it on my Switch like I can the followup.
yomlica8 3y ago
I was also fairly obsessed with modding this game, which is strange because I'm not really a massive Star Wars fan. The cog language (more or less C syntax) was far more powerful than the base game really made use of. I think the grappling hook mods really got me started though, the engine wasn't super modern but few games really sold the vertigo of wide open cliffs and pits like this one did. I like tinkering with it far more than I did playing it. Cog seemed almost bolted on and the base cogs really only were sort of complicated for weapon handling and scripted level events. But I remember making laser trip mines (and the ability to shoot the mines with a blaster), a crude rope for the grappling hook, reloading weapons, etc. By the time I moved on I was implementing A* pathfinding for a replacement AI written in cog. I'd switched to Mysteries of the Sith just to get access to more cog verbs.
ceearrbee 3y ago
Dark Forces 2, cog files! I haven't thought of any of this in years! We're very similar, it was my introduction to game editing - I was never a fan of DOOM, Quake or Unreal/Tournament. But, I played around so much with JKEdit, and even continued with Jedi Outcast. It was by far the most fun I had with modding a game until Morrowind came out years later. I really wish that modern games were as accessible, at least at a surface level - modding has fallen to the sidelines in recent years - I can't even think of the last game that came with an editor outside of a Bethesda game.
eunoia 3y ago
Battle.net also used to be great for learning your way around computers. Designed and released my first "game" via Starcraft's Map Editor, first "server" was a Battle.net chat bot hosted in my closet... First peek into how complex software works was map hacking Diablo 2... etc etc. I learned a ton from Battle.net.

prox 3y ago

Anyone here that makes games for fun or on the side?

fncslothouber 3y ago
Yup, for fun. Building a game from scratch almost from from the bottom. Starting with a CPU, sound-chip and graphics-chip (using an FPGA). On top of that a Forth system and on top of that a platform game. Lots of fun and a great learning experience.
sk0g 3y ago
Absolutely, currently remaking and old arcade game (SAMI) with a team that has skills beyond engineering, because engineering and a bit of guitar is about all I have time for :) It's a great way to learn a lot, and it has definitely helped me with how I approach problem solving and software design in my day job.
pizza234 3y ago
I did for a bit, but it's a bit tricky, in the sense that differently from other types of products, games have a very strong separation between the artistic and the engineering aspects. This has very significant consequences. If one works alone on a game, they may find that they keep solving technical problems, without actually producing a game, but rather, producing an engine. If one works in a team, and nobody takes a creative lead, the same thing happens - technical advancements in the game, but no content. In the right conditions (either a balanced team, or a single dev who enjoys both aspects), game development is fantastic - from the engineering perspective, game development is a very challenging (in an interesting way) field. But I think it's not easy to find the right context.
trizoza 3y ago
Yes, I made rotaboxes and posted here recently [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33718124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33718124]
erremerre 3y ago
I have started learning and have done a very unpolished pong to learn. I did write a blog entry here: https://blog.rmrubert.eu/posts/2023-06-17-making-my-first-game-another-pong-in-python/ https://blog.rmrubert.eu/posts/2023-06-17-making-my-first-ga... I do agree with this sentence on the article <<The meta stuff takes as much effort, if not more, than the core game. I mean the menus, instructions, release materials, API integrations for advertisements and high scoreboards, and so on.>> as the menu you can see in my game (which is very unpolished) took as much as the game itself.

insomagent 3y ago

The reason I stopped making games... The tooling! It takes way too long to open Unreal Engine, or to do anything within its UI, and Unity gives me "bad vibes" (technical term) any time I open it. I know these days there are other engines, but I started my programming journey by learning game engines, and perhaps I should have learned programming properly before jumping into game programming.

lastangryman 3y ago
You should try Godot. Open source and extremely lightweight compared to Unity and Unreal. It's pleasure to use, none of the baggage of the other engines. I'm a patron contributor. Fantastic for hobbyist tinkering and also viable for full blown commercial games. https://godotengine.org/ https://godotengine.org/
- wilonth 3y ago
  Yeah Godot editor is snappy and smooth, unlike Unity and Unreal. However Godot's 3D and physics implementation leaves a lot to be desired. Not sure if Godot 4 solves those issues.
  - mackatap 3y ago
    For a solo indie dev it is far more than enough. There are solutions to any physics problems you encounter. The 3d in Godot 4 is quite beautiful
- elefanten 3y ago
  Can you share any references for finding the top quality or best known games made using Godot? I haven’t looked in a while.
  - sunnybeetroot 3y ago
    There is a decent showcase page on their site https://godotengine.org/showcase/ https://godotengine.org/showcase/

phil917 3y ago

I developed/published mobile games for awhile during and immediately after college. I think my games saw somewhere in the ballpark of 500,000 downloads and I made "OK" income from them for 1 - 2 years (roughly on par with a minimum wage job in the US). I briefly considered going full-time into solo game dev. But once I got my first "real" job offer after college, I quickly let go of that idea. Many years later, as a SaaS founder now, I have a strong itch to get back into game development. One of my dream goals is to some day exit my company and then comfortably/leisurely "retire" into a career as a solo game dev.

robertlagrant 3y ago
That is definitely not the world's worst plan. I've started building a tiny, rubbish Pong clone in PixiJS for my son to play with me, and it is pretty intoxicating.

chuan_l 3y ago

Its the " unknown - unknowns " that'll get you every time. From somebody who has an interest in game design , development and worked on a few released titles. Those games just don't look to be any fun ? Its a mistake that a lot of independent developers make : trying to make games , that have the semblance of classic games. Part of this comes from the learning process as well - it takes a lot more to create 3d content , rig it , animate it so on. Though my best advice is to look within yourself , and your own experience for the situations and narratives that resonate. Look at somebody like " Lucas Pope " who made " Papers Please " " Return of the Obra Dinn " after leaving a full time developer position at " Naughty Dog ". It seems Austin works with AI - assisted code , why not turn that into a game ? The world is already full of people trying to emulate Tarantino and Miyamoto. Be your own thing , be the next thing and your situation - process is all part of that. Just need to change the mindset a bit and turn your limitations into a different kind of expression. Then there's a lot of hard work !

johnnyanmac 3y ago
Interesting how you advice is to not to emulate classic games while the author came to the opposite conclusion: >Chasing novelty for the sake of novelty is silly. Gameplay mechanics often don't work out the way you plan in your mind. I find that bottom-up design is much more effective. But I guess that's the thing about game design. There is no one true blue answer, and it ultimately comes down to how you approach problems in general. I'm guessing some are just really good at deeply analyzing a game and polishing up their own variation of that game, while others are better off learning concepts and then drawing their own experiences together rather than following a tight template. (Note: this ofc can vary even in the same person, from genre to genre. I'm sure some fighting game experts can design their own fighting game down to the number of frames per attack per character. but also can't figure out a basic game loop for an FPS.)

suddenclarity 3y ago

I created a handful of games at university, each taking a few months, and I'd say the biggest lesson was how little programming was involved. Programming new functionality would only take a few hours, but then I had to spend days on creating models, music, map design, environment, resources, menus, HUD.. Granted, we were tied by not being allowed to purchase assets due to copyright but even finding useable free assets took most of the dev time. I'm curious how AI will improve this but it's definitely something for programmers to have in mind when starting out. It looks so easy in tutorials/courses when they have an asset pack ready to go and can build the core game mechanics in a few hours. The reality is a little different.