5 ms·

> If that's me just standing up and saying "hey A, B, and C, you guys got a sec? Here is a problem I found, mind going to the whiteboard real quick" will always

> If that's me just standing up and saying "hey A, B, and C, you guys got a sec? Here is a problem I found, mind going to the whiteboard real quick" will always trump "shit, let me look at everyone's calendar and schedule a 30 minute meeting" then get an email asking about agenda, and 2 people who have personal conflicts and someone asking to reschedule last minute. That's a big fat strawman. The same way I can gather some people from the office for a five-minute adhoc whiteboard session, I can start a quick group chat about a topic and turn it into a video conference if necessary. No scheduling or agenda required.

eddythompson80 3y ago
No. PERIOD. Written communication is inherently significantly more complicated. To "jot down" any idea you need to consider how that record will further be shared with others. If I were to write an .md file with a bunch of terms that only the 6 of us know what that's all about, then make a bunch of assumptions based on that. All it takes is one of the team members who doesn't agree to forward that written record to a management person then adding their own context (which I never got to add my own context) and get the whole thing vetoed from a much high authority than I care to argue with. In a written communication, I need to elaborate and explain every single thing to everyone regardless of their knowledge level. Then add links to those who don't know. Then add links to the link to those who don't know. Then eventually schedule a meeting to discuss the proposal. then a meeting to discuss the results of discussing the discussion of the proposal.
- drewcoo 3y ago
  > In a written communication, I need to elaborate and explain every single thing to everyone regardless of their knowledge level. Because ESP, gestures, and pheromones don't work over Zoom? I'm not buying this. Also, you've moved the goalposts again. The GP suggested video. Not writing a book in Markdown.
  - eddythompson80 3y ago
    > Because ESP, gestures, and pheromones don't work over Zoom? I'm not buying this. Yes they don't work unless you have a company/team policy of "everyone must turn on their camera 100% of the time". You can say something in a meeting with 14 people, take a quick look and see 10 people nodding and 4 perplexed (or 4 people nodding and 10 perplexed). Can't do that with 14 static avatars. As far as I know no company has such policy. When a team in my company tried to enforce it, their manager got a quick call from HR saying they can't do that.
    - stormking 3y ago
      What the hell do you want with 14 people in a meeting? I thought you wanted to solve a problem, not found an Union?
      - eddythompson80 3y ago
        Can’t control who forwards the meeting invite to who. At the end of the day a 1 second scan for 14 people can tell you, those are agreeing, those are disagreeing, those are confused, those have no skin in the game and are on their phones and I don’t need to worry about them.
- the_gipsy 3y ago
  You're just making your job easier and everybody else's harder or outright miserable. I get your point, less work for you and job security, but don't be surprised if you're not met with sympathy or not taken seriously.
  - nightpool 3y ago
    On a team of ICs, making your job easier is making everybody else's job easier, because you're all doing the same kind of work. If you're on a team where everyone insists on having everything documented down to the T before any code actually gets written, then you're on a team that's going to ship features slower and have less flexibility. That's what's making everybody's job harder.
    - the_gipsy 3y ago
      > everyone insists on having everything documented down to the T "Documenting" is not "documenting everything down to the T". You can have that attitude with verbal communication too.
- stormking 3y ago
  "PERIOD"? Really? Is that supposed to somehow convince me? Your problem is not remote work, your problem is that you seem to work in a toxic environment. And judging by the discussion style you employ here, it could also be that you're used to rely more on intimidation than arguments. That indeed doesn't work nearly as well in an e-mail. Now, I have worked in remote-first teams, in an office-first team that during Covid was suddenly forced to become a remote-first team and in one of those oh-so-dreaded "mixed" teams. The latter has some challenges but nothing that cannot be worked out. And you will find assholes, that report their own account of events to the boss all the time, in the office as well. What I never encountered was, that quickly getting a few colleagues together to exchange ideas about a problem would be some kind of challenge. You post to the group channel, quickly explain the problem and ask people to join a short call. Done.
- the_gipsy 3y ago
  > All it takes is one of the team members who doesn't agree to forward that written record to a management person then adding their own context (which I never got to add my own context) and get the whole thing vetoed from a much high authority than I care to argue with. There seem to be trust issues between you and your team. No wonder.
- CalRobert 3y ago
  "I need to elaborate and explain every single thing to everyone regardless of their knowledge level. Then add links to those who don't know." You just described why written communication is vastly better.

eddythompson80 3y ago

No. PERIOD. Written communication is inherently significantly more complicated. To "jot down" any idea you need to consider how that record will further be shared with others. If I were to write an .md file with a bunch of terms that only the 6 of us know what that's all about, then make a bunch of assumptions based on that. All it takes is one of the team members who doesn't agree to forward that written record to a management person then adding their own context (which I never got to add my own context) and get the whole thing vetoed from a much high authority than I care to argue with. In a written communication, I need to elaborate and explain every single thing to everyone regardless of their knowledge level. Then add links to those who don't know. Then add links to the link to those who don't know. Then eventually schedule a meeting to discuss the proposal. then a meeting to discuss the results of discussing the discussion of the proposal.

drewcoo 3y ago
> In a written communication, I need to elaborate and explain every single thing to everyone regardless of their knowledge level. Because ESP, gestures, and pheromones don't work over Zoom? I'm not buying this. Also, you've moved the goalposts again. The GP suggested video. Not writing a book in Markdown.
- eddythompson80 3y ago
  > Because ESP, gestures, and pheromones don't work over Zoom? I'm not buying this. Yes they don't work unless you have a company/team policy of "everyone must turn on their camera 100% of the time". You can say something in a meeting with 14 people, take a quick look and see 10 people nodding and 4 perplexed (or 4 people nodding and 10 perplexed). Can't do that with 14 static avatars. As far as I know no company has such policy. When a team in my company tried to enforce it, their manager got a quick call from HR saying they can't do that.
  - stormking 3y ago
    What the hell do you want with 14 people in a meeting? I thought you wanted to solve a problem, not found an Union?
    - eddythompson80 3y ago
      Can’t control who forwards the meeting invite to who. At the end of the day a 1 second scan for 14 people can tell you, those are agreeing, those are disagreeing, those are confused, those have no skin in the game and are on their phones and I don’t need to worry about them.
the_gipsy 3y ago
You're just making your job easier and everybody else's harder or outright miserable. I get your point, less work for you and job security, but don't be surprised if you're not met with sympathy or not taken seriously.
- nightpool 3y ago
  On a team of ICs, making your job easier is making everybody else's job easier, because you're all doing the same kind of work. If you're on a team where everyone insists on having everything documented down to the T before any code actually gets written, then you're on a team that's going to ship features slower and have less flexibility. That's what's making everybody's job harder.
  - the_gipsy 3y ago
    > everyone insists on having everything documented down to the T "Documenting" is not "documenting everything down to the T". You can have that attitude with verbal communication too.
stormking 3y ago
"PERIOD"? Really? Is that supposed to somehow convince me? Your problem is not remote work, your problem is that you seem to work in a toxic environment. And judging by the discussion style you employ here, it could also be that you're used to rely more on intimidation than arguments. That indeed doesn't work nearly as well in an e-mail. Now, I have worked in remote-first teams, in an office-first team that during Covid was suddenly forced to become a remote-first team and in one of those oh-so-dreaded "mixed" teams. The latter has some challenges but nothing that cannot be worked out. And you will find assholes, that report their own account of events to the boss all the time, in the office as well. What I never encountered was, that quickly getting a few colleagues together to exchange ideas about a problem would be some kind of challenge. You post to the group channel, quickly explain the problem and ask people to join a short call. Done.
the_gipsy 3y ago
> All it takes is one of the team members who doesn't agree to forward that written record to a management person then adding their own context (which I never got to add my own context) and get the whole thing vetoed from a much high authority than I care to argue with. There seem to be trust issues between you and your team. No wonder.
CalRobert 3y ago
"I need to elaborate and explain every single thing to everyone regardless of their knowledge level. Then add links to those who don't know." You just described why written communication is vastly better.