8 ms·

Meta/Facebook is inviting Fediverse admins under NDA for “meetings”

92 points by pierat 3y ago

rvz 3y ago
With this alternative it would mean that Instagram will be the biggest (Mastodon-compatible) social platform out there. Just like what happened with Gab. Henceforth, centralization wins again [0], even worse with the Mastodon admins going under NDA's with Meta to be corrupted with opaqueness and little to no transparency. As it stands unsurprisingly: "Instagram's success on ActivityPub is also Mastodon's nightmare and it tends to more centralization." [0] So I should be expecting mass instance-level bans and the de-federation of Instagram then? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36012434 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36012434
- slater 3y ago
  Do you have an alert for anything and everything Mastodon? You seem obsessed with poo-pooing any Mastodon-adjacent news item posted here on HN.
  - rvz 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - slater 3y ago
      I'm not obsessed, I just like reading stuff about federation. And any time there's a post about Mastodon here on HN, there's a near-100% chance you'll be in there, posting a variation of "told you so!! centralization wins again!!~", and that does not for an interesting discussion make.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
sattoshi 3y ago
If Fediverse admins accept the NDAs, it would be a shame. You can’t run open communities while the top is conspiring.
- dark-star 3y ago
  I would think that at least half of them (probably more) wouldn't say no to a suitcase full of cash....
  - EA-3167 3y ago
    For sure, most people are only as principled as their opportunities allow them to be.
10g1k 3y ago
Unless you are the perpetrator of some crime, you just have no reason to ever sign an NDA. Or unless you want the pile of cash they promise you. If there's no clear benefit for you, when someone says signing an NDA is part of the process, the answer is "No".
- 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
  Benefits aren't always clear. How old are you?
- epicureanideal 3y ago
  I wish we could standardize this as a developer community, but of course there are those who are placed at disadvantage due to their visa status that pretty much have no choice to sign these things, and that sets a pattern that managers expect everyone to comply with.. Is there some way to promote suggested standards in the industry? Maybe if someone like levels.fyi or layoffs.fyi or Blind were to suggest that we all start or stop doing whatever.
  - piperswe 3y ago
    Traditionally, unions are used to set standards for employees' relationships with companies.
    - epicureanideal 3y ago
      Our industry seems generally opposed to unions, so a different method might be more effective.
- throwawayadvsec 3y ago
  This is one of the most stupid things I've ever read. Ever heard of trade secrets?
  - auxym 3y ago
    Or patents and public disclosure. Ie, if you're in the process of developing patentable technology or writing a patent, anyone to whom you disclose details needs to be under NDA, otherwise your patent may be refused due to prior public disclosure. Or so is my understanding anyways, I am not a lawyer.
notacoward 3y ago
My favorite was the one person who said they saw the call and just let it ring. Legend. I know I couldn't have resisted the temptation, if only to find out what kind of pitch it was. I'll bet that's something Mr. Zuckerberg (or more likely his admin) doesn't experience every day.
- ShamelessC 3y ago
  They have a widely reported upon hiring problem. People (myself included) ignore their emails and phone calls all the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_content_management_controversies#Incitement_of_human_rights_abuses_in_Myanmar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_content_management_co...
  - notacoward 3y ago
    Yes, we all have. I used to, for years before I went there (through personal contacts). I've even gotten a couple of calls since I retired from there, which is kind of silly. I'm talking specifically about a call from Zuck's office, not from Facebook recruiting generally.
dnissley 3y ago
I'm not sure what Meta or the fediverse has to gain by attempting to get in bed with each other -- a lot of people on the fediverse are extremely anti-big-biz, and extremely anti-meta in particular. IMO all Meta has to do to succeed here is to create a better managed Twitter. They don't need to get all fancy with it by trying to bolt on fediverse compatibility. Disclaimer: I work at Meta, but not on IG or Project 92.
- marcinzm 3y ago
  I figure they’re making some type of long term embrace/extend/extinguish play against a potential competitor to their twitter plans.
- refulgentis 3y ago
  - What is IG? If instagram, what relevance does it have to the Fediverse stuff? - What is Project 92? - When referring to “what Meta has to do to succeed here”, what is here? - If it’s federated Twitter, what makes it “just” in the sentence that “Meta just has to…”? - if Meta just does Twitter-but-well-run, wouldn’t that run counter to federation?
  - detaro 3y ago
    https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/8/23754304/instagram-meta-twitter-competitor-threads-activitypub https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/8/23754304/instagram-meta-tw...
  - pierat 3y ago
    That's the point: we just don't know what Facebook/Meta is planning. However, we DO know that Eugen Rochko signed the NDA with Facebook/Meta from https://433.world/@Yuvalne/110566872225488614 https://433.world/@Yuvalne/110566872225488614 (screen cap of deleted post). Eugen Rochko is the creator of Mastodon. Text of screen capture: "screenshot of a partial Mastodon thread from Tusky. @gargron@mastodon.social: @dansup I think it’s important to understand what they’re working on and how it fits with what we’re doing. Even if an NDA is required, knowing is better than not knowing. @dansup@mastodon.social: @Gargron Yeah that's a good point, I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt! The fediverse could really use that type of growth, and it's a good sign that they are willing to have discussions with fediverse stakeholders."
waboremo 3y ago
It seems like the rumor is self-referential. Is there anything more substantial here?
- realitythreek 3y ago
  Can you explain self-referential? Do you mean the people that were invited are talking about it in public? That’s a first person account.
  - waboremo 3y ago
    As in the rumor references itself, people are taking the existence of the rumor as proof the rumor is true, but in the thread (when I last checked) nobody actually posted anything remotely usable for even a shallow tech investigation piece. Like the guy saying he didn't pick up when Meta called. Was it actually Meta? What are the conditions for the invitation? We'll never know, but apparently this is enough proof of both an NDA and Meta trying to force admins to do something they don't want. Hopefully that explains it.
    - realitythreek 3y ago
      Both @Gargron amd @dansup directly referred to there being a meeting and that it required an NDA. Whether that is concerning to you is up to you, but 2 of the people in question already stated it.
samwillis 3y ago
My guess, is that they know they can't "own" the Fediverse, and their play is more about how to hedge its success and ensure they own a significant revenue stream from it. So my expectation is that they are making an advertising platform play. All the nodes cost a lot to run, and as the Fediverse grows will only get more resource intensive, and more expensive. If Facebook/Meta can build an advertising product that can fund nodes I'm sure there is a significant number that will take that up. Obviously there will be nodes that push back, I can see nodes de-federating Meta ad supported nodes. Maybe they will surprise us though and actually try and launch a Twitter like product as part of the Fediverse. One of the biggest issues they are going to find though is that so many of the influential Fediverse people are so anti Meta, and anti many of the things that they would want to build. Search and caching/reposting of content seems to be a toxic topic on the Fediverse, but something I'm sure Meta would want. It's going to be exciting watch, will have to get some popcorn.
lakomen 3y ago
What did I tell you, Mastodon with Meta censorship. It's coming. Embrace extend exterminate.
NGRhodes 3y ago
My guess is Meta are trying bribe admins to ensure they federate Project P92.
- ImaCake 3y ago
  Seems plausible! Would be an interesting event. Maybe a win for the fediverse but depends on how it plays out of course.
Triangle9349 3y ago
I think they need a self-moderating system aka Project P92 and the entire infrastructure and people are already there. Minimum costs, your rules. Next ads. perfect timing, people are looking for where to go from reddit and twitter. Mastadon and lemmy are a bit confusing for a newbie, I think Meta will fix that. Metaverse will not pay for itself.
mise_en_place 3y ago
Interesting. What’s the play here for FB? IIRC there were rumors of starting up a Twitter competitor.
- jacooper 3y ago
  Yes, and according to multiple sources its going to be activitypub compatible. https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/startup/meta-mulls-a-twitter-competitor-codenamed-p92-that-will-be-interoperable-with-mastodon-10223961.html https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/startup/meta-mull... https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/19/everything-we-know-about-instagrams-twitter-clone-due-this-summer/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/19/everything-we-know-about-i...
jacooper 3y ago
They are building an activitypub compatible twitter clone. https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/startup/meta-mulls-a-twitter-competitor-codenamed-p92-that-will-be-interoperable-with-mastodon-10223961.html https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/startup/meta-mull... https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/19/everything-we-know-about-instagrams-twitter-clone-due-this-summer/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/19/everything-we-know-about-i...
histopol 3y ago
With 1.3 mn active users, #Mastodon is but an ant in comparison to the 3,000 mn users of #Facebook. #FB was created as a macho website and it's become a toxic space. Maybe the #Fediverse should have a vote if it really wants to be hooked up to such a place? Any individuals would still be free to join. If #Meta were #Twitter, I'm sure about the vote. #Meta is in the same league, though. #FOSS does not mean that corporations can all join, regardless of their behavior + agenda. #NoMetaHordes https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/110007609833914742 https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/110007609833914742
histopol 3y ago
[dead]
kup0 3y ago
Glad to see the instance I am on immediately has chosen to defederate from P92

92 points by pierat 3y ago

rvz 3y ago

With this alternative it would mean that Instagram will be the biggest (Mastodon-compatible) social platform out there. Just like what happened with Gab. Henceforth, centralization wins again [0], even worse with the Mastodon admins going under NDA's with Meta to be corrupted with opaqueness and little to no transparency. As it stands unsurprisingly: "Instagram's success on ActivityPub is also Mastodon's nightmare and it tends to more centralization." [0] So I should be expecting mass instance-level bans and the de-federation of Instagram then? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36012434 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36012434

slater 3y ago
Do you have an alert for anything and everything Mastodon? You seem obsessed with poo-pooing any Mastodon-adjacent news item posted here on HN.
- rvz 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - slater 3y ago
    I'm not obsessed, I just like reading stuff about federation. And any time there's a post about Mastodon here on HN, there's a near-100% chance you'll be in there, posting a variation of "told you so!! centralization wins again!!~", and that does not for an interesting discussion make.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

sattoshi 3y ago

If Fediverse admins accept the NDAs, it would be a shame. You can’t run open communities while the top is conspiring.

dark-star 3y ago
I would think that at least half of them (probably more) wouldn't say no to a suitcase full of cash....
- EA-3167 3y ago
  For sure, most people are only as principled as their opportunities allow them to be.

10g1k 3y ago

Unless you are the perpetrator of some crime, you just have no reason to ever sign an NDA. Or unless you want the pile of cash they promise you. If there's no clear benefit for you, when someone says signing an NDA is part of the process, the answer is "No".

111111IIIIIII 3y ago
Benefits aren't always clear. How old are you?
epicureanideal 3y ago
I wish we could standardize this as a developer community, but of course there are those who are placed at disadvantage due to their visa status that pretty much have no choice to sign these things, and that sets a pattern that managers expect everyone to comply with.. Is there some way to promote suggested standards in the industry? Maybe if someone like levels.fyi or layoffs.fyi or Blind were to suggest that we all start or stop doing whatever.
- piperswe 3y ago
  Traditionally, unions are used to set standards for employees' relationships with companies.
  - epicureanideal 3y ago
    Our industry seems generally opposed to unions, so a different method might be more effective.
throwawayadvsec 3y ago
This is one of the most stupid things I've ever read. Ever heard of trade secrets?
- auxym 3y ago
  Or patents and public disclosure. Ie, if you're in the process of developing patentable technology or writing a patent, anyone to whom you disclose details needs to be under NDA, otherwise your patent may be refused due to prior public disclosure. Or so is my understanding anyways, I am not a lawyer.

notacoward 3y ago

My favorite was the one person who said they saw the call and just let it ring. Legend. I know I couldn't have resisted the temptation, if only to find out what kind of pitch it was. I'll bet that's something Mr. Zuckerberg (or more likely his admin) doesn't experience every day.

ShamelessC 3y ago
They have a widely reported upon hiring problem. People (myself included) ignore their emails and phone calls all the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_content_management_controversies#Incitement_of_human_rights_abuses_in_Myanmar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_content_management_co...
- notacoward 3y ago
  Yes, we all have. I used to, for years before I went there (through personal contacts). I've even gotten a couple of calls since I retired from there, which is kind of silly. I'm talking specifically about a call from Zuck's office, not from Facebook recruiting generally.

dnissley 3y ago

I'm not sure what Meta or the fediverse has to gain by attempting to get in bed with each other -- a lot of people on the fediverse are extremely anti-big-biz, and extremely anti-meta in particular. IMO all Meta has to do to succeed here is to create a better managed Twitter. They don't need to get all fancy with it by trying to bolt on fediverse compatibility. Disclaimer: I work at Meta, but not on IG or Project 92.

marcinzm 3y ago
I figure they’re making some type of long term embrace/extend/extinguish play against a potential competitor to their twitter plans.
refulgentis 3y ago
- What is IG? If instagram, what relevance does it have to the Fediverse stuff? - What is Project 92? - When referring to “what Meta has to do to succeed here”, what is here? - If it’s federated Twitter, what makes it “just” in the sentence that “Meta just has to…”? - if Meta just does Twitter-but-well-run, wouldn’t that run counter to federation?
- detaro 3y ago
  https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/8/23754304/instagram-meta-twitter-competitor-threads-activitypub https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/8/23754304/instagram-meta-tw...
- pierat 3y ago
  That's the point: we just don't know what Facebook/Meta is planning. However, we DO know that Eugen Rochko signed the NDA with Facebook/Meta from https://433.world/@Yuvalne/110566872225488614 https://433.world/@Yuvalne/110566872225488614 (screen cap of deleted post). Eugen Rochko is the creator of Mastodon. Text of screen capture: "screenshot of a partial Mastodon thread from Tusky. @gargron@mastodon.social: @dansup I think it’s important to understand what they’re working on and how it fits with what we’re doing. Even if an NDA is required, knowing is better than not knowing. @dansup@mastodon.social: @Gargron Yeah that's a good point, I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt! The fediverse could really use that type of growth, and it's a good sign that they are willing to have discussions with fediverse stakeholders."

waboremo 3y ago

It seems like the rumor is self-referential. Is there anything more substantial here?

realitythreek 3y ago
Can you explain self-referential? Do you mean the people that were invited are talking about it in public? That’s a first person account.
- waboremo 3y ago
  As in the rumor references itself, people are taking the existence of the rumor as proof the rumor is true, but in the thread (when I last checked) nobody actually posted anything remotely usable for even a shallow tech investigation piece. Like the guy saying he didn't pick up when Meta called. Was it actually Meta? What are the conditions for the invitation? We'll never know, but apparently this is enough proof of both an NDA and Meta trying to force admins to do something they don't want. Hopefully that explains it.
  - realitythreek 3y ago
    Both @Gargron amd @dansup directly referred to there being a meeting and that it required an NDA. Whether that is concerning to you is up to you, but 2 of the people in question already stated it.

samwillis 3y ago

My guess, is that they know they can't "own" the Fediverse, and their play is more about how to hedge its success and ensure they own a significant revenue stream from it. So my expectation is that they are making an advertising platform play. All the nodes cost a lot to run, and as the Fediverse grows will only get more resource intensive, and more expensive. If Facebook/Meta can build an advertising product that can fund nodes I'm sure there is a significant number that will take that up. Obviously there will be nodes that push back, I can see nodes de-federating Meta ad supported nodes. Maybe they will surprise us though and actually try and launch a Twitter like product as part of the Fediverse. One of the biggest issues they are going to find though is that so many of the influential Fediverse people are so anti Meta, and anti many of the things that they would want to build. Search and caching/reposting of content seems to be a toxic topic on the Fediverse, but something I'm sure Meta would want. It's going to be exciting watch, will have to get some popcorn.

lakomen 3y ago

What did I tell you, Mastodon with Meta censorship. It's coming. Embrace extend exterminate.

NGRhodes 3y ago

My guess is Meta are trying bribe admins to ensure they federate Project P92.

ImaCake 3y ago
Seems plausible! Would be an interesting event. Maybe a win for the fediverse but depends on how it plays out of course.

Triangle9349 3y ago

I think they need a self-moderating system aka Project P92 and the entire infrastructure and people are already there. Minimum costs, your rules. Next ads. perfect timing, people are looking for where to go from reddit and twitter. Mastadon and lemmy are a bit confusing for a newbie, I think Meta will fix that. Metaverse will not pay for itself.

mise_en_place 3y ago

Interesting. What’s the play here for FB? IIRC there were rumors of starting up a Twitter competitor.

jacooper 3y ago
Yes, and according to multiple sources its going to be activitypub compatible. https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/startup/meta-mulls-a-twitter-competitor-codenamed-p92-that-will-be-interoperable-with-mastodon-10223961.html https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/startup/meta-mull... https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/19/everything-we-know-about-instagrams-twitter-clone-due-this-summer/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/19/everything-we-know-about-i...

jacooper 3y ago

They are building an activitypub compatible twitter clone. https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/startup/meta-mulls-a-twitter-competitor-codenamed-p92-that-will-be-interoperable-with-mastodon-10223961.html https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/startup/meta-mull... https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/19/everything-we-know-about-instagrams-twitter-clone-due-this-summer/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/19/everything-we-know-about-i...

histopol 3y ago

With 1.3 mn active users, #Mastodon is but an ant in comparison to the 3,000 mn users of #Facebook. #FB was created as a macho website and it's become a toxic space. Maybe the #Fediverse should have a vote if it really wants to be hooked up to such a place? Any individuals would still be free to join. If #Meta were #Twitter, I'm sure about the vote. #Meta is in the same league, though. #FOSS does not mean that corporations can all join, regardless of their behavior + agenda. #NoMetaHordes https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/110007609833914742 https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/110007609833914742

histopol 3y ago

[dead]

kup0 3y ago

Glad to see the instance I am on immediately has chosen to defederate from P92