6 ms·

Wait, sorry, your argument in favor of remote work is that in increases paperwork and pointless documentation that doesn't allow for flexibility? And your argum

Wait, sorry, your argument in favor of remote work is that in increases paperwork and pointless documentation that doesn't allow for flexibility? And your argument against working in the office is that sometimes people get sick? I will say, if those are my two options, I'm going to choose getting sick for a few days a year over filling out thousands of words of tech specs that don't actually clarify anything for anyone (because all of the actual questions get answered over slack DMs anyway) every single time. (Not saying all tech specs are bad, but they're certainly not a one size fits all process and if remote work means we need more of them then that means we're spending more time writing them then we need to be)

the_gipsy 3y ago
You're completely twisting the words. Documentation is not pointless and not "paperwork" (a term used to describe bureaucracy e.g. rules and regulations and approvals). Writing documentation is en exercise of efficiency, when information is distilled into concise writing. Others can then process this information or recall it whenever they want. There are great tools to discuss and resolve questions in a collaborative way. It's just much more thoughtful than just blurting out what first comes to mind. Verbal communication is usually a huge time waster and can be outright disrespectful if someone prefers to rob everyone's time and digress and to push the "distilling" part onto everyone else - if the distilling even happens before everyone has tuned out and just agrees to finish yet another meeting.
- eddythompson80 3y ago
  They aren't really twisting anything. A 20 minute in person chat over a whiteboard can save weeks of back and forth on written communication. It's not that crazy. My work place has "do what you want policy, but we want to encourage remote work and shrink our leased offices". My team at least has 4 people that come to the office regularly, and 2 that work remotely 100%. The #1 complaint of full time remote workers is they feel we all agree on designs and decisions and they just get to see a doc that 4/6 have already signed off on verbally and they feel not involved. I have no idea how to "make them feel involved" nor do I care tbh. I'll always do what's more efficient and what reduces red tape. If that's me just standing up and saying "hey A, B, and C, you guys got a sec? Here is a problem I found, mind going to the whiteboard real quick" will always trump "shit, let me look at everyone's calendar and schedule a 30 minute meeting" then get an email asking about agenda, and 2 people who have personal conflicts and someone asking to reschedule last minute. > Verbal communication is usually a huge time waster and can be outright disrespectful if someone prefers to rob everyone's time and digress and to push the "distilling" part onto everyone else - if the distilling even happens before everyone has tuned out and just agrees to finish yet another meeting. You do far more pointless meeting and verbal communication when everyone is working remotely anyway. A conversation that just needs 3 people will now involve 12 because everyone needs to forward a meeting invite to everyone they think might even be remotely interested. The "outright disrespectful" is just a people problem. outright disrespectful people will be outright disrespectful in both verbal and non-verbal communication.
  - politelemon 3y ago
    > A 20 minute in person chat over a whiteboard can save weeks of back and forth on written communication. We noticed this as well. Now we come in at least once a week. Is there any way that the same level of speed of collaboration can be achieved remotely? We use all sorts of tools but we've not been able to achieve that kind of productivity and it honestly irks me.
    - waboremo 3y ago
      Try the ones that try to mimic the whiteboard experience, Apple Freeform, Microsoft Whiteboard, Explain Everything, Invision, Milanote, Miro, etc. It really is such a powerful format, as long as some ground rules are established (not creating a totally new board every single time, as there's plenty of space due to digital format, and to prioritize expanding space use rather than wiping each other's notes). Couple this with a more instant communication form, ie voice chats, and there isn't much else to need when it comes to collaboration. With the added benefit of async communication, you can leave notes to each other on the board/build off things without having to actually be together at the same time. I will note that if you have a tablet and compatible pen (with app support), it makes it all feel so intuitive. But some people get into the flow of clicking and dragging components with text it's not a big difference.
      - eddythompson80 3y ago
        The "animation" part is my biggest problem with these services. with a physical whiteboard, you get to do your own getto animation. Do you want to express the flow of data/requests in a service? easy, just draw them as you're expressing them. Do you want to express a node replacing a node, draw the arrows, use an eraser and you're done. You've essentially created the "animation" part in real life without any need to learn or know "animation" software which is too complicated. in 2020 when we were all forced to work from home, I bought a really expensive Wacom tablet thinking that I can use that to replace a white board. The logistics of it all was just too complicated. telling everyone on the meeting "wait, shut up. let me grab my tablet. Let me connect my tablet. Let me share my screen. Can you see my screen? let me start drawing. Can you see my drawing? oh I'm drawing too fast and you can't see the arrow's direction? oh sorry I'm not used to drawing on a tablet. I'm pointing to "this". Can you see "this"? what do you see? no that's not what I was pointing at. I'm point at "this" not at "that". Let me disconnect and connect again." might as well just cancel the project and look for another job.
- ghaff 3y ago
  Yep. At least the people I work with have generally been pretty good about it for a while but written documentation generally, meetings agenda, minutes to at least some level of detail, etc. all seem pretty useful especially in situations where at least some people are going to miss the meeting for whatever reason.
gtirloni 3y ago
> increases paperwork and pointless documentation You added this yourself. Documenting stuff is not pointless or "paperwork" (e.g. filling forms to get certain things done). Working remotely async requires people to document their meetings, have documentation in place for newcommers to your project, etc. It's far from pointless. The alternative is to have these mythical "watercooler chats" that people keep saying exist where 2-3 people gather together and exchange ideas and decide on things without letting other participate or know about until it's too late. I've never seen much of that while I worked in an office but if it exists, the company has way bigger issues.
- nightpool 3y ago
  The implication of "pointless" was added specifically by the person I was replying to. They said that working remotely required more written documentation. If that documentation would not be required by the same team working in person, then I think it's fair to call it "pointless"—it's a tax paid for remote collaboration. I think different people can disagree over whether or not we should pay that tax, but saying that there's no tax at all is just ignoring the reality of remote work.
  - gtirloni 3y ago
    Are you saying in office teams don't document things? No meeting notes, no tickets, no updated documentation and that's because they are not remote? Remote work forces companies to work as they should have already be doing things. Or in other words, it exposes dysfunctional orgs.
smsm42 3y ago
Over decades of my programming career, I have seen piles of poorly documented code and dozens of poorly documented systems. What I almost never seen is "pointless documentation". The default state of a software system is under-documented. Anything that improves upon it is good.
- nightpool 3y ago
  "…In that Empire, the Art of Cartography attained such Perfection that the map of a single Province occupied the entirety of a City, and the map of the Empire, the entirety of a Province. In time, those Unconscionable Maps no longer satisfied, and the Cartographers Guilds struck a Map of the Empire whose size was that of the Empire, and which coincided point for point with it. The following Generations, who were not so fond of the Study of Cartography as their Forebears had been, saw that that vast Map was Useless, and not without some Pitilessness was it, that they delivered it up to the Inclemencies of Sun and Winters. In the Deserts of the West, still today, there are Tattered Ruins of that Map, inhabited by Animals and Beggars; in all the Land there is no other Relic of the Disciplines of Geography" The map is not the territory.
  - smsm42 3y ago
    True, the map is not the territory. But finding oneself in unfamiliar territory, having a map is better than having none.
  - efnx 3y ago
    What’s up with the capitalisations? It reminds me of reading conspiracy geocities.

the_gipsy 3y ago

You're completely twisting the words. Documentation is not pointless and not "paperwork" (a term used to describe bureaucracy e.g. rules and regulations and approvals). Writing documentation is en exercise of efficiency, when information is distilled into concise writing. Others can then process this information or recall it whenever they want. There are great tools to discuss and resolve questions in a collaborative way. It's just much more thoughtful than just blurting out what first comes to mind. Verbal communication is usually a huge time waster and can be outright disrespectful if someone prefers to rob everyone's time and digress and to push the "distilling" part onto everyone else - if the distilling even happens before everyone has tuned out and just agrees to finish yet another meeting.

eddythompson80 3y ago
They aren't really twisting anything. A 20 minute in person chat over a whiteboard can save weeks of back and forth on written communication. It's not that crazy. My work place has "do what you want policy, but we want to encourage remote work and shrink our leased offices". My team at least has 4 people that come to the office regularly, and 2 that work remotely 100%. The #1 complaint of full time remote workers is they feel we all agree on designs and decisions and they just get to see a doc that 4/6 have already signed off on verbally and they feel not involved. I have no idea how to "make them feel involved" nor do I care tbh. I'll always do what's more efficient and what reduces red tape. If that's me just standing up and saying "hey A, B, and C, you guys got a sec? Here is a problem I found, mind going to the whiteboard real quick" will always trump "shit, let me look at everyone's calendar and schedule a 30 minute meeting" then get an email asking about agenda, and 2 people who have personal conflicts and someone asking to reschedule last minute. > Verbal communication is usually a huge time waster and can be outright disrespectful if someone prefers to rob everyone's time and digress and to push the "distilling" part onto everyone else - if the distilling even happens before everyone has tuned out and just agrees to finish yet another meeting. You do far more pointless meeting and verbal communication when everyone is working remotely anyway. A conversation that just needs 3 people will now involve 12 because everyone needs to forward a meeting invite to everyone they think might even be remotely interested. The "outright disrespectful" is just a people problem. outright disrespectful people will be outright disrespectful in both verbal and non-verbal communication.
- politelemon 3y ago
  > A 20 minute in person chat over a whiteboard can save weeks of back and forth on written communication. We noticed this as well. Now we come in at least once a week. Is there any way that the same level of speed of collaboration can be achieved remotely? We use all sorts of tools but we've not been able to achieve that kind of productivity and it honestly irks me.
  - waboremo 3y ago
    Try the ones that try to mimic the whiteboard experience, Apple Freeform, Microsoft Whiteboard, Explain Everything, Invision, Milanote, Miro, etc. It really is such a powerful format, as long as some ground rules are established (not creating a totally new board every single time, as there's plenty of space due to digital format, and to prioritize expanding space use rather than wiping each other's notes). Couple this with a more instant communication form, ie voice chats, and there isn't much else to need when it comes to collaboration. With the added benefit of async communication, you can leave notes to each other on the board/build off things without having to actually be together at the same time. I will note that if you have a tablet and compatible pen (with app support), it makes it all feel so intuitive. But some people get into the flow of clicking and dragging components with text it's not a big difference.
    - eddythompson80 3y ago
      The "animation" part is my biggest problem with these services. with a physical whiteboard, you get to do your own getto animation. Do you want to express the flow of data/requests in a service? easy, just draw them as you're expressing them. Do you want to express a node replacing a node, draw the arrows, use an eraser and you're done. You've essentially created the "animation" part in real life without any need to learn or know "animation" software which is too complicated. in 2020 when we were all forced to work from home, I bought a really expensive Wacom tablet thinking that I can use that to replace a white board. The logistics of it all was just too complicated. telling everyone on the meeting "wait, shut up. let me grab my tablet. Let me connect my tablet. Let me share my screen. Can you see my screen? let me start drawing. Can you see my drawing? oh I'm drawing too fast and you can't see the arrow's direction? oh sorry I'm not used to drawing on a tablet. I'm pointing to "this". Can you see "this"? what do you see? no that's not what I was pointing at. I'm point at "this" not at "that". Let me disconnect and connect again." might as well just cancel the project and look for another job.
ghaff 3y ago
Yep. At least the people I work with have generally been pretty good about it for a while but written documentation generally, meetings agenda, minutes to at least some level of detail, etc. all seem pretty useful especially in situations where at least some people are going to miss the meeting for whatever reason.

gtirloni 3y ago

> increases paperwork and pointless documentation You added this yourself. Documenting stuff is not pointless or "paperwork" (e.g. filling forms to get certain things done). Working remotely async requires people to document their meetings, have documentation in place for newcommers to your project, etc. It's far from pointless. The alternative is to have these mythical "watercooler chats" that people keep saying exist where 2-3 people gather together and exchange ideas and decide on things without letting other participate or know about until it's too late. I've never seen much of that while I worked in an office but if it exists, the company has way bigger issues.

nightpool 3y ago
The implication of "pointless" was added specifically by the person I was replying to. They said that working remotely required more written documentation. If that documentation would not be required by the same team working in person, then I think it's fair to call it "pointless"—it's a tax paid for remote collaboration. I think different people can disagree over whether or not we should pay that tax, but saying that there's no tax at all is just ignoring the reality of remote work.
- gtirloni 3y ago
  Are you saying in office teams don't document things? No meeting notes, no tickets, no updated documentation and that's because they are not remote? Remote work forces companies to work as they should have already be doing things. Or in other words, it exposes dysfunctional orgs.

smsm42 3y ago

Over decades of my programming career, I have seen piles of poorly documented code and dozens of poorly documented systems. What I almost never seen is "pointless documentation". The default state of a software system is under-documented. Anything that improves upon it is good.

nightpool 3y ago
"…In that Empire, the Art of Cartography attained such Perfection that the map of a single Province occupied the entirety of a City, and the map of the Empire, the entirety of a Province. In time, those Unconscionable Maps no longer satisfied, and the Cartographers Guilds struck a Map of the Empire whose size was that of the Empire, and which coincided point for point with it. The following Generations, who were not so fond of the Study of Cartography as their Forebears had been, saw that that vast Map was Useless, and not without some Pitilessness was it, that they delivered it up to the Inclemencies of Sun and Winters. In the Deserts of the West, still today, there are Tattered Ruins of that Map, inhabited by Animals and Beggars; in all the Land there is no other Relic of the Disciplines of Geography" The map is not the territory.
- smsm42 3y ago
  True, the map is not the territory. But finding oneself in unfamiliar territory, having a map is better than having none.
- efnx 3y ago
  What’s up with the capitalisations? It reminds me of reading conspiracy geocities.