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'remote work' requires expressly documenting and writing things out. This is what companies have _said_ they wanted since forever. (Probably to in theory make

'remote work' requires expressly documenting and writing things out. This is what companies have _said_ they wanted since forever. (Probably to in theory make employees more fungible.) Done well, this promotes clarity and consistency. The water cooler chat model, that tends to lead to other outcomes. Maybe the core goal does see some innovation, but documenting that becomes much harder. There are also detractions to the everyone together models. Anyone with kids _will_ bring the latest mutations of colds into work. They'll vector out of daycare and schools through the parents and infect everyone in the office. Frequent Fliers might also have a similar effect based on their sheer exposure. Allowing WFH isolates these fault domains and minimizes the spread.

nightpool 3y ago
Wait, sorry, your argument in favor of remote work is that in increases paperwork and pointless documentation that doesn't allow for flexibility? And your argument against working in the office is that sometimes people get sick? I will say, if those are my two options, I'm going to choose getting sick for a few days a year over filling out thousands of words of tech specs that don't actually clarify anything for anyone (because all of the actual questions get answered over slack DMs anyway) every single time. (Not saying all tech specs are bad, but they're certainly not a one size fits all process and if remote work means we need more of them then that means we're spending more time writing them then we need to be)
- the_gipsy 3y ago
  You're completely twisting the words. Documentation is not pointless and not "paperwork" (a term used to describe bureaucracy e.g. rules and regulations and approvals). Writing documentation is en exercise of efficiency, when information is distilled into concise writing. Others can then process this information or recall it whenever they want. There are great tools to discuss and resolve questions in a collaborative way. It's just much more thoughtful than just blurting out what first comes to mind. Verbal communication is usually a huge time waster and can be outright disrespectful if someone prefers to rob everyone's time and digress and to push the "distilling" part onto everyone else - if the distilling even happens before everyone has tuned out and just agrees to finish yet another meeting.
  - eddythompson80 3y ago
    They aren't really twisting anything. A 20 minute in person chat over a whiteboard can save weeks of back and forth on written communication. It's not that crazy. My work place has "do what you want policy, but we want to encourage remote work and shrink our leased offices". My team at least has 4 people that come to the office regularly, and 2 that work remotely 100%. The #1 complaint of full time remote workers is they feel we all agree on designs and decisions and they just get to see a doc that 4/6 have already signed off on verbally and they feel not involved. I have no idea how to "make them feel involved" nor do I care tbh. I'll always do what's more efficient and what reduces red tape. If that's me just standing up and saying "hey A, B, and C, you guys got a sec? Here is a problem I found, mind going to the whiteboard real quick" will always trump "shit, let me look at everyone's calendar and schedule a 30 minute meeting" then get an email asking about agenda, and 2 people who have personal conflicts and someone asking to reschedule last minute. > Verbal communication is usually a huge time waster and can be outright disrespectful if someone prefers to rob everyone's time and digress and to push the "distilling" part onto everyone else - if the distilling even happens before everyone has tuned out and just agrees to finish yet another meeting. You do far more pointless meeting and verbal communication when everyone is working remotely anyway. A conversation that just needs 3 people will now involve 12 because everyone needs to forward a meeting invite to everyone they think might even be remotely interested. The "outright disrespectful" is just a people problem. outright disrespectful people will be outright disrespectful in both verbal and non-verbal communication.
    - politelemon 3y ago
      > A 20 minute in person chat over a whiteboard can save weeks of back and forth on written communication. We noticed this as well. Now we come in at least once a week. Is there any way that the same level of speed of collaboration can be achieved remotely? We use all sorts of tools but we've not been able to achieve that kind of productivity and it honestly irks me.
      - waboremo 3y ago
        Try the ones that try to mimic the whiteboard experience, Apple Freeform, Microsoft Whiteboard, Explain Everything, Invision, Milanote, Miro, etc. It really is such a powerful format, as long as some ground rules are established (not creating a totally new board every single time, as there's plenty of space due to digital format, and to prioritize expanding space use rather than wiping each other's notes). Couple this with a more instant communication form, ie voice chats, and there isn't much else to need when it comes to collaboration. With the added benefit of async communication, you can leave notes to each other on the board/build off things without having to actually be together at the same time. I will note that if you have a tablet and compatible pen (with app support), it makes it all feel so intuitive. But some people get into the flow of clicking and dragging components with text it's not a big difference.
- gtirloni 3y ago
  > increases paperwork and pointless documentation You added this yourself. Documenting stuff is not pointless or "paperwork" (e.g. filling forms to get certain things done). Working remotely async requires people to document their meetings, have documentation in place for newcommers to your project, etc. It's far from pointless. The alternative is to have these mythical "watercooler chats" that people keep saying exist where 2-3 people gather together and exchange ideas and decide on things without letting other participate or know about until it's too late. I've never seen much of that while I worked in an office but if it exists, the company has way bigger issues.
  - nightpool 3y ago
    The implication of "pointless" was added specifically by the person I was replying to. They said that working remotely required more written documentation. If that documentation would not be required by the same team working in person, then I think it's fair to call it "pointless"—it's a tax paid for remote collaboration. I think different people can disagree over whether or not we should pay that tax, but saying that there's no tax at all is just ignoring the reality of remote work.
    - gtirloni 3y ago
      Are you saying in office teams don't document things? No meeting notes, no tickets, no updated documentation and that's because they are not remote? Remote work forces companies to work as they should have already be doing things. Or in other words, it exposes dysfunctional orgs.
- smsm42 3y ago
  Over decades of my programming career, I have seen piles of poorly documented code and dozens of poorly documented systems. What I almost never seen is "pointless documentation". The default state of a software system is under-documented. Anything that improves upon it is good.
  - nightpool 3y ago
    "…In that Empire, the Art of Cartography attained such Perfection that the map of a single Province occupied the entirety of a City, and the map of the Empire, the entirety of a Province. In time, those Unconscionable Maps no longer satisfied, and the Cartographers Guilds struck a Map of the Empire whose size was that of the Empire, and which coincided point for point with it. The following Generations, who were not so fond of the Study of Cartography as their Forebears had been, saw that that vast Map was Useless, and not without some Pitilessness was it, that they delivered it up to the Inclemencies of Sun and Winters. In the Deserts of the West, still today, there are Tattered Ruins of that Map, inhabited by Animals and Beggars; in all the Land there is no other Relic of the Disciplines of Geography" The map is not the territory.
    - smsm42 3y ago
      True, the map is not the territory. But finding oneself in unfamiliar territory, having a map is better than having none.
    - efnx 3y ago
      What’s up with the capitalisations? It reminds me of reading conspiracy geocities.
quantified 3y ago
We seem to have forgotten how much the individual contributor disliked the open floor plan workplace for its sea of distractions. We remember this aspect when enough other people have returned to the office.
- Dudester230602 3y ago
  I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... Open floor full of people - all doing Teams calls... With colleagues who could not come, because there was not enough desks at the office, for everyone to book...
  - scruple 3y ago
    We're RTOing, to a hybrid model. I don't really give a shit, work is equidistant from my home and my kids preschool and daycare -- I have to spend ~60 minutes a day in a car regardless of where I work, and my particular office set up is pretty comfy. But, I'll be on Zoom calls because the other half of my team is RTOing on the other side of the country. The "reasons" (justifications by any other word) given for RTO are asinine.
  - MattPalmer1086 3y ago
    Haha, recognise. Except our colleagues are in the US, UK and other countries. So there are pretty much never meetings that don't involve sitting in front of a screen. They still want us all in on a few days a month, for reasons...
ddingus 3y ago
I am currently working mixed mode. In the past, I have worked mostly office, and mostly mobile, depending on the primary role in play for me at the time. This variety can be a big deal! One aspect is I am completely free to maximize an opportunity. Work at customer site, work at home, work at office... whatever gets the task done at max value. Having that experience over a sustained time has shown me a few things, and one of those is how communication channels and context work. Let's take that water cooler convo. People like those because they appear casual, spontaneous and the context is compartmentalized away from the usual, sort of a back or side channel. I have the same conversations over Skype, for example, or via a phone call while traveling. I believe this struggle will result in more people being more flexible in how they communicate and why and as they do, the strong pressure to be in an office all the time will be reduced in a large number of cases. There is almost no difference between a Skype chat, text messages, phone call or water cooler, break room, smoke room chat. People who try it will soon adapt and everyone involved will be better off.
thefz 3y ago
> The water cooler chat model, that tends to lead to other outcomes. I can't stand the creeping of "social" office life into my private life. Hey let's catch drinks after / see the match together / get to know each other. It brings way more negatives than positives into the work life. I spend less energies deflecting this kind of interactions in remote work, and I can concentrate on the actual work even more. It's okay to be detached.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
> 'remote work' requires expressly documenting and writing things out. Not just documentation -- all communication needs to be more explicit and deliberate. Organic "water cooler chats" can happen but in different ways.

nightpool 3y ago

Wait, sorry, your argument in favor of remote work is that in increases paperwork and pointless documentation that doesn't allow for flexibility? And your argument against working in the office is that sometimes people get sick? I will say, if those are my two options, I'm going to choose getting sick for a few days a year over filling out thousands of words of tech specs that don't actually clarify anything for anyone (because all of the actual questions get answered over slack DMs anyway) every single time. (Not saying all tech specs are bad, but they're certainly not a one size fits all process and if remote work means we need more of them then that means we're spending more time writing them then we need to be)

the_gipsy 3y ago
You're completely twisting the words. Documentation is not pointless and not "paperwork" (a term used to describe bureaucracy e.g. rules and regulations and approvals). Writing documentation is en exercise of efficiency, when information is distilled into concise writing. Others can then process this information or recall it whenever they want. There are great tools to discuss and resolve questions in a collaborative way. It's just much more thoughtful than just blurting out what first comes to mind. Verbal communication is usually a huge time waster and can be outright disrespectful if someone prefers to rob everyone's time and digress and to push the "distilling" part onto everyone else - if the distilling even happens before everyone has tuned out and just agrees to finish yet another meeting.
- eddythompson80 3y ago
  They aren't really twisting anything. A 20 minute in person chat over a whiteboard can save weeks of back and forth on written communication. It's not that crazy. My work place has "do what you want policy, but we want to encourage remote work and shrink our leased offices". My team at least has 4 people that come to the office regularly, and 2 that work remotely 100%. The #1 complaint of full time remote workers is they feel we all agree on designs and decisions and they just get to see a doc that 4/6 have already signed off on verbally and they feel not involved. I have no idea how to "make them feel involved" nor do I care tbh. I'll always do what's more efficient and what reduces red tape. If that's me just standing up and saying "hey A, B, and C, you guys got a sec? Here is a problem I found, mind going to the whiteboard real quick" will always trump "shit, let me look at everyone's calendar and schedule a 30 minute meeting" then get an email asking about agenda, and 2 people who have personal conflicts and someone asking to reschedule last minute. > Verbal communication is usually a huge time waster and can be outright disrespectful if someone prefers to rob everyone's time and digress and to push the "distilling" part onto everyone else - if the distilling even happens before everyone has tuned out and just agrees to finish yet another meeting. You do far more pointless meeting and verbal communication when everyone is working remotely anyway. A conversation that just needs 3 people will now involve 12 because everyone needs to forward a meeting invite to everyone they think might even be remotely interested. The "outright disrespectful" is just a people problem. outright disrespectful people will be outright disrespectful in both verbal and non-verbal communication.
  - politelemon 3y ago
    > A 20 minute in person chat over a whiteboard can save weeks of back and forth on written communication. We noticed this as well. Now we come in at least once a week. Is there any way that the same level of speed of collaboration can be achieved remotely? We use all sorts of tools but we've not been able to achieve that kind of productivity and it honestly irks me.
    - waboremo 3y ago
      Try the ones that try to mimic the whiteboard experience, Apple Freeform, Microsoft Whiteboard, Explain Everything, Invision, Milanote, Miro, etc. It really is such a powerful format, as long as some ground rules are established (not creating a totally new board every single time, as there's plenty of space due to digital format, and to prioritize expanding space use rather than wiping each other's notes). Couple this with a more instant communication form, ie voice chats, and there isn't much else to need when it comes to collaboration. With the added benefit of async communication, you can leave notes to each other on the board/build off things without having to actually be together at the same time. I will note that if you have a tablet and compatible pen (with app support), it makes it all feel so intuitive. But some people get into the flow of clicking and dragging components with text it's not a big difference.
gtirloni 3y ago
> increases paperwork and pointless documentation You added this yourself. Documenting stuff is not pointless or "paperwork" (e.g. filling forms to get certain things done). Working remotely async requires people to document their meetings, have documentation in place for newcommers to your project, etc. It's far from pointless. The alternative is to have these mythical "watercooler chats" that people keep saying exist where 2-3 people gather together and exchange ideas and decide on things without letting other participate or know about until it's too late. I've never seen much of that while I worked in an office but if it exists, the company has way bigger issues.
- nightpool 3y ago
  The implication of "pointless" was added specifically by the person I was replying to. They said that working remotely required more written documentation. If that documentation would not be required by the same team working in person, then I think it's fair to call it "pointless"—it's a tax paid for remote collaboration. I think different people can disagree over whether or not we should pay that tax, but saying that there's no tax at all is just ignoring the reality of remote work.
  - gtirloni 3y ago
    Are you saying in office teams don't document things? No meeting notes, no tickets, no updated documentation and that's because they are not remote? Remote work forces companies to work as they should have already be doing things. Or in other words, it exposes dysfunctional orgs.
smsm42 3y ago
Over decades of my programming career, I have seen piles of poorly documented code and dozens of poorly documented systems. What I almost never seen is "pointless documentation". The default state of a software system is under-documented. Anything that improves upon it is good.
- nightpool 3y ago
  "…In that Empire, the Art of Cartography attained such Perfection that the map of a single Province occupied the entirety of a City, and the map of the Empire, the entirety of a Province. In time, those Unconscionable Maps no longer satisfied, and the Cartographers Guilds struck a Map of the Empire whose size was that of the Empire, and which coincided point for point with it. The following Generations, who were not so fond of the Study of Cartography as their Forebears had been, saw that that vast Map was Useless, and not without some Pitilessness was it, that they delivered it up to the Inclemencies of Sun and Winters. In the Deserts of the West, still today, there are Tattered Ruins of that Map, inhabited by Animals and Beggars; in all the Land there is no other Relic of the Disciplines of Geography" The map is not the territory.
  - smsm42 3y ago
    True, the map is not the territory. But finding oneself in unfamiliar territory, having a map is better than having none.
  - efnx 3y ago
    What’s up with the capitalisations? It reminds me of reading conspiracy geocities.

quantified 3y ago

We seem to have forgotten how much the individual contributor disliked the open floor plan workplace for its sea of distractions. We remember this aspect when enough other people have returned to the office.

Dudester230602 3y ago
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... Open floor full of people - all doing Teams calls... With colleagues who could not come, because there was not enough desks at the office, for everyone to book...
- scruple 3y ago
  We're RTOing, to a hybrid model. I don't really give a shit, work is equidistant from my home and my kids preschool and daycare -- I have to spend ~60 minutes a day in a car regardless of where I work, and my particular office set up is pretty comfy. But, I'll be on Zoom calls because the other half of my team is RTOing on the other side of the country. The "reasons" (justifications by any other word) given for RTO are asinine.
- MattPalmer1086 3y ago
  Haha, recognise. Except our colleagues are in the US, UK and other countries. So there are pretty much never meetings that don't involve sitting in front of a screen. They still want us all in on a few days a month, for reasons...

ddingus 3y ago

I am currently working mixed mode. In the past, I have worked mostly office, and mostly mobile, depending on the primary role in play for me at the time. This variety can be a big deal! One aspect is I am completely free to maximize an opportunity. Work at customer site, work at home, work at office... whatever gets the task done at max value. Having that experience over a sustained time has shown me a few things, and one of those is how communication channels and context work. Let's take that water cooler convo. People like those because they appear casual, spontaneous and the context is compartmentalized away from the usual, sort of a back or side channel. I have the same conversations over Skype, for example, or via a phone call while traveling. I believe this struggle will result in more people being more flexible in how they communicate and why and as they do, the strong pressure to be in an office all the time will be reduced in a large number of cases. There is almost no difference between a Skype chat, text messages, phone call or water cooler, break room, smoke room chat. People who try it will soon adapt and everyone involved will be better off.

thefz 3y ago

> The water cooler chat model, that tends to lead to other outcomes. I can't stand the creeping of "social" office life into my private life. Hey let's catch drinks after / see the match together / get to know each other. It brings way more negatives than positives into the work life. I spend less energies deflecting this kind of interactions in remote work, and I can concentrate on the actual work even more. It's okay to be detached.

red-iron-pine 3y ago

> 'remote work' requires expressly documenting and writing things out. Not just documentation -- all communication needs to be more explicit and deliberate. Organic "water cooler chats" can happen but in different ways.