5 ms·

Reddit CEO says company is 'not negotiating' on 3rd-party app charges

60 points by rmason 3y ago

stathibus 3y ago
Reddit is a for-profit company that attracted its user base by pretending to be a public good. Now they are behaving like a company and the users are mad about it. Maybe they will be mad enough to fuel an alternative that truly is set up like a public good, but I doubt it.
- smotched 3y ago
  how do you fund this public alternative and have it be even remotely competitive?
  - cmcaleer 3y ago
    Ultimately it doesn’t cost that much to serve some links and text. Video hosting (especially live streamed!) can get expensive, but for example HN runs on a single server with a standby[1]. Reddit’s technical moat is negligible. It’s the network effect that matters. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16076041 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16076041
    - hcks 3y ago
      Yeah we know. It’s easy. Cost nothing. That must be why there’s literally 0 serious alternative out there.
      - cmcaleer 3y ago
        > It’s the network effect that matters.
    - randomdata 3y ago
      I'm not so sure the network effect is significant to Reddit. Forum going is a solitary activity, not a social one. Reddit does not become less attractive if your friends don't use it. In fact, it would not become less attractive if there were no people and the site's characters were powered by sufficiently advanced LLM models or some such. Any reliance on other humans is merely an implementation detail, not the core offering. Humans no doubt at this time provide the simplest, most affordable, and best implemented implementation, and for that reason you do need some number of humans to provide the software outputs in practice. As LLMs improve that may not always be the case, but we'll assume for today it is. But, again, I'm not sure a service like Reddit benefits from more and more people ad infinitum as the network effect would. More and more just creates more noisy outputs. I suggest that so long as your inputs create suitable outputs, say, ~75% of the time then you'll be happy. If even just one person can stay on top of providing that then you don't gain from even more people. In practice, that would be a lot for one person to keep up with, but by the time you have hundreds of people the returns start to quickly diminish. In fact, too many people, again, can create too much noise, which reduces the quality of service. Reddit gained in popularity because it had, and arguably still has, the best generally available forum software. As we all know, Reddit only staved off certain death a number of years ago because the best forum software that came before it was rewritten and became unusable in that rewrite, prompting a migration to Reddit. I stays popular because, on top of the quality of software, it benefits from the stickiness effect. Now that people are accustomed to using it, it's easy to keep on using it. One might find that Lemmy, or whatever, works just as well, but "just as well" isn't sufficient reason to put in the effort to try. This is the only real "moat" Reddit has. But the network effect? The network effect can actually be detrimental to forums. Reddit has been able to stay relevant with a large network because it has done well in avoiding the network effect, pushing users into small, isolated groups.
      - Tainnor 3y ago
        > I'm not so sure the network effect is significant to Reddit. Forum going is a solitary activity, not a social one. Reddit does not become less attractive if your friends don't use it. In fact, it would not become less attractive if there were no people and the site's characters were powered by sufficiently advanced LLM models or some such. Any reliance on other humans is merely an implementation detail, not the core offering. What? No. This completely misses the point of highly specialised, high-quality subreddits like r/AskHistorians that would be worthless if there weren't actually other people on it. If I wanted to talk to an LLM, I would do so directly, but most of the time I don't.
- DoktorDelta 3y ago
  I found a Lemmy instance with a satisfying set of local communities that's also federated with some other high-traffic instances- BeeHaw.org Overwrote and deleted my Reddit account and I've been trying not to look back, but the habit is a little tough to break
  - emptysongglass 3y ago
    Beehaw isn't a good steward of the federated model: they kneejerk defederate at the slightest provocation. I'd pick any instance but theirs.
- uninformed 3y ago
  I've been thinking about revamping and bringing back mailing lists but I'm still thinking through the obstacles. Does anyone else have any thoughts?
  - isykt 3y ago
    [dead]
mindcrime 3y ago
The problem with this one is it’s not going to change anything because we made a business decision that we’re not negotiating on. That's just straight up incompetence. -Everything- is negotiable at the end of the day. To draw a line in the sand like that and refuse to negotiate at all is extremely childish. It's the kind of thing that's appropriate on a 5th grade playground, not in the world of a purportedly serious business that's looking to IPO.
- rcme 3y ago
  He didn’t say the decision was non-negotiable. He said that they’re not [currently] negotiating on the decision.
- habitue 3y ago
  > -Everything- is negotiable at the end of the day. Right, and saying "We aren't going to negotiate" is a negotiating tactic
  - cmcaleer 3y ago
    Of course, and if you play that card you shouldn’t be surprised if your counterparty gets up from the table and walks away.
    - posguy 3y ago
      The counterparty might expect that you are honest when you say it is not negotiable and the reasonable course of action is to re-evaluate working with you as a business partner. This burns the platform as you destroy features the userbase has come to depend on, see all of the companies and government entities that stopped offering anything (timetable updates, support, etc) on Twitter given the recent burning of API partners that Twitter followed through on.
      - vachina 3y ago
        Govs should not use Twitter to conduct business. Not everyone uses Twitter, and by your own example can disappear anytime. Also I’m sure Reddit has already made deliberation and determined losing some friends is worth it.
paul_grisham 3y ago
Reddit janitor salary - $0/hr (full time)
dragonwriter 3y ago
This is dumb: > “Protest and dissent is important… The problem with this one is it’s not going to change anything because we made a business decision that we’re not negotiating on.” If someone is negotiating, you can negotiate with them. Punitive action like boycotta can help put pressure on negotiations, but often the whole point is to force someone to negotiate on something they are currently not negotiating on. The other side not negotiating isn’t a problem with protest and action, its the problem motivating it.
revlolz 3y ago
Is there some special features that make Reddit a must for small/niche community building? Or is Reddit's value purely that it has the most users? I'm failing to see why Alien Blue, RiF, other 3rd parties cannot create a replacement platform. I'm sure there may be some context why (feel free to inform me).
- dybber 3y ago
  I think Lemmy has a similar API, so the hope is those apps will start working towards being Lemmy clients.
- technofiend 3y ago
  >Or is Reddit's value purely that it has the most users? Most users and now that SEO spam has corrupted search results, Reddit often has the most useful answers. This is why reddit also has a karma farming and astroturfing problem since the spammers are trying to inject themselves into search results from the platform as well. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there's not a reddit fork or mass exodus when a compelling replacement comes along. So far it's early days and much like mastodon vs Twitter, there's not a yet a critical mass on the replacement.
- YetAnotherNick 3y ago
  Every one the site doesn't have good ARR. While investors may fund these now, they are funding on the expectation of getting their money back. And as of now enshittification for ads is the only proven way to earn revenue that is good enough for the valuation. Donation model or premium model(like discord or reddit premium) doesn't work.
  - HWR_14 3y ago
    Isn't discord (rumored to be) profitable?
  - KnobbleMcKnees 3y ago
    As they are a company trying to make profit, isn't it their _literal job_ to find a way to make the site profitable without alienating a significant chunk of the userbase? Because, from this standpoint, it just looks like they're incapable of doing their jobs properly. Especially Steve.
mock-possum 3y ago
It really is a shame it has to end this way… such a betrayal.
- archerx 3y ago
  The reddit mods are getting what they deserve, they turned reddit into a cancerous echo chamber where the slightest hint of wrong think will get you banned. They made their bed now they get to sleep in it. Karma is sweet and as someone once said "Popcorn tastes good".
  - Timon3 3y ago
    You act like every single mod of every single subreddit is responsible for your grievances. What did they do to you?
    - archerx 3y ago
      My account on reddit is 17 years old, I have watched reddit go from being a smart, nice place where people share knowledge and experiences to a narcissistic black hole of snark and cringe and the new tone was set by the mods. The only sub I have been banned by is the web dev sub because I replied to some one who said “anyone who uses PHP is an idiot” with “only an idiot would have that opinion”, I was perma banned from webdev and the other person was not. I know many people who have been banned for less. A house cleaning of the mods would do reddit good. There are some good mods but they are rare and only handle a few niche subs.
      - Timon3 3y ago
        So you want to remove potentially good mods from communities because you have had bad experiences with bad mods from different communities. Does that really make sense to you?
        archerx 3y ago
        Yes.

60 points by rmason 3y ago

Reddit is a for-profit company that attracted its user base by pretending to be a public good. Now they are behaving like a company and the users are mad about it. Maybe they will be mad enough to fuel an alternative that truly is set up like a public good, but I doubt it.

smotched 3y ago
how do you fund this public alternative and have it be even remotely competitive?
- cmcaleer 3y ago
  Ultimately it doesn’t cost that much to serve some links and text. Video hosting (especially live streamed!) can get expensive, but for example HN runs on a single server with a standby[1]. Reddit’s technical moat is negligible. It’s the network effect that matters. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16076041 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16076041
  - hcks 3y ago
    Yeah we know. It’s easy. Cost nothing. That must be why there’s literally 0 serious alternative out there.
    - cmcaleer 3y ago
      > It’s the network effect that matters.
  - randomdata 3y ago
    I'm not so sure the network effect is significant to Reddit. Forum going is a solitary activity, not a social one. Reddit does not become less attractive if your friends don't use it. In fact, it would not become less attractive if there were no people and the site's characters were powered by sufficiently advanced LLM models or some such. Any reliance on other humans is merely an implementation detail, not the core offering. Humans no doubt at this time provide the simplest, most affordable, and best implemented implementation, and for that reason you do need some number of humans to provide the software outputs in practice. As LLMs improve that may not always be the case, but we'll assume for today it is. But, again, I'm not sure a service like Reddit benefits from more and more people ad infinitum as the network effect would. More and more just creates more noisy outputs. I suggest that so long as your inputs create suitable outputs, say, ~75% of the time then you'll be happy. If even just one person can stay on top of providing that then you don't gain from even more people. In practice, that would be a lot for one person to keep up with, but by the time you have hundreds of people the returns start to quickly diminish. In fact, too many people, again, can create too much noise, which reduces the quality of service. Reddit gained in popularity because it had, and arguably still has, the best generally available forum software. As we all know, Reddit only staved off certain death a number of years ago because the best forum software that came before it was rewritten and became unusable in that rewrite, prompting a migration to Reddit. I stays popular because, on top of the quality of software, it benefits from the stickiness effect. Now that people are accustomed to using it, it's easy to keep on using it. One might find that Lemmy, or whatever, works just as well, but "just as well" isn't sufficient reason to put in the effort to try. This is the only real "moat" Reddit has. But the network effect? The network effect can actually be detrimental to forums. Reddit has been able to stay relevant with a large network because it has done well in avoiding the network effect, pushing users into small, isolated groups.
    - Tainnor 3y ago
      > I'm not so sure the network effect is significant to Reddit. Forum going is a solitary activity, not a social one. Reddit does not become less attractive if your friends don't use it. In fact, it would not become less attractive if there were no people and the site's characters were powered by sufficiently advanced LLM models or some such. Any reliance on other humans is merely an implementation detail, not the core offering. What? No. This completely misses the point of highly specialised, high-quality subreddits like r/AskHistorians that would be worthless if there weren't actually other people on it. If I wanted to talk to an LLM, I would do so directly, but most of the time I don't.
DoktorDelta 3y ago
I found a Lemmy instance with a satisfying set of local communities that's also federated with some other high-traffic instances- BeeHaw.org Overwrote and deleted my Reddit account and I've been trying not to look back, but the habit is a little tough to break
- emptysongglass 3y ago
  Beehaw isn't a good steward of the federated model: they kneejerk defederate at the slightest provocation. I'd pick any instance but theirs.
uninformed 3y ago
I've been thinking about revamping and bringing back mailing lists but I'm still thinking through the obstacles. Does anyone else have any thoughts?
- isykt 3y ago
  [dead]

mindcrime 3y ago

The problem with this one is it’s not going to change anything because we made a business decision that we’re not negotiating on. That's just straight up incompetence. -Everything- is negotiable at the end of the day. To draw a line in the sand like that and refuse to negotiate at all is extremely childish. It's the kind of thing that's appropriate on a 5th grade playground, not in the world of a purportedly serious business that's looking to IPO.

rcme 3y ago
He didn’t say the decision was non-negotiable. He said that they’re not [currently] negotiating on the decision.
habitue 3y ago
> -Everything- is negotiable at the end of the day. Right, and saying "We aren't going to negotiate" is a negotiating tactic
- cmcaleer 3y ago
  Of course, and if you play that card you shouldn’t be surprised if your counterparty gets up from the table and walks away.
  - posguy 3y ago
    The counterparty might expect that you are honest when you say it is not negotiable and the reasonable course of action is to re-evaluate working with you as a business partner. This burns the platform as you destroy features the userbase has come to depend on, see all of the companies and government entities that stopped offering anything (timetable updates, support, etc) on Twitter given the recent burning of API partners that Twitter followed through on.
    - vachina 3y ago
      Govs should not use Twitter to conduct business. Not everyone uses Twitter, and by your own example can disappear anytime. Also I’m sure Reddit has already made deliberation and determined losing some friends is worth it.

paul_grisham 3y ago

Reddit janitor salary - $0/hr (full time)

dragonwriter 3y ago

This is dumb: > “Protest and dissent is important… The problem with this one is it’s not going to change anything because we made a business decision that we’re not negotiating on.” If someone is negotiating, you can negotiate with them. Punitive action like boycotta can help put pressure on negotiations, but often the whole point is to force someone to negotiate on something they are currently not negotiating on. The other side not negotiating isn’t a problem with protest and action, its the problem motivating it.

revlolz 3y ago

Is there some special features that make Reddit a must for small/niche community building? Or is Reddit's value purely that it has the most users? I'm failing to see why Alien Blue, RiF, other 3rd parties cannot create a replacement platform. I'm sure there may be some context why (feel free to inform me).

dybber 3y ago
I think Lemmy has a similar API, so the hope is those apps will start working towards being Lemmy clients.
technofiend 3y ago
>Or is Reddit's value purely that it has the most users? Most users and now that SEO spam has corrupted search results, Reddit often has the most useful answers. This is why reddit also has a karma farming and astroturfing problem since the spammers are trying to inject themselves into search results from the platform as well. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there's not a reddit fork or mass exodus when a compelling replacement comes along. So far it's early days and much like mastodon vs Twitter, there's not a yet a critical mass on the replacement.
YetAnotherNick 3y ago
Every one the site doesn't have good ARR. While investors may fund these now, they are funding on the expectation of getting their money back. And as of now enshittification for ads is the only proven way to earn revenue that is good enough for the valuation. Donation model or premium model(like discord or reddit premium) doesn't work.
- HWR_14 3y ago
  Isn't discord (rumored to be) profitable?
- KnobbleMcKnees 3y ago
  As they are a company trying to make profit, isn't it their _literal job_ to find a way to make the site profitable without alienating a significant chunk of the userbase? Because, from this standpoint, it just looks like they're incapable of doing their jobs properly. Especially Steve.

mock-possum 3y ago

It really is a shame it has to end this way… such a betrayal.

archerx 3y ago
The reddit mods are getting what they deserve, they turned reddit into a cancerous echo chamber where the slightest hint of wrong think will get you banned. They made their bed now they get to sleep in it. Karma is sweet and as someone once said "Popcorn tastes good".
- Timon3 3y ago
  You act like every single mod of every single subreddit is responsible for your grievances. What did they do to you?
  - archerx 3y ago
    My account on reddit is 17 years old, I have watched reddit go from being a smart, nice place where people share knowledge and experiences to a narcissistic black hole of snark and cringe and the new tone was set by the mods. The only sub I have been banned by is the web dev sub because I replied to some one who said “anyone who uses PHP is an idiot” with “only an idiot would have that opinion”, I was perma banned from webdev and the other person was not. I know many people who have been banned for less. A house cleaning of the mods would do reddit good. There are some good mods but they are rare and only handle a few niche subs.
    - Timon3 3y ago
      So you want to remove potentially good mods from communities because you have had bad experiences with bad mods from different communities. Does that really make sense to you?
      - archerx 3y ago
        Yes.