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After a decade of programming 50+ hours a week in many languages (typescript, javascript, python, scala, java, lua, bash, c++, etc), I have come to the conclusi

After a decade of programming 50+ hours a week in many languages (typescript, javascript, python, scala, java, lua, bash, c++, etc), I have come to the conclusion that Java is simply the best. The tooling, libraries, stability, verbose rigidity. It forces a style of programming that simply scales to more engineers better

AtlasBarfed 3y ago
In javaland, the actual ideal is somewhere in the feature set supported by Groovy. CompileStatic groovy is probably the best, you get a lot of good features for no performance hit.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
29athrowaway 3y ago
https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpris... On a more serious note, most Java code on Github is now written by Copilot.
winrid 3y ago
Have you tried C#? It looks a lot nicer to work with than Java.
- watermelon59 3y ago
  The ecosystem is nowhere near as mature though. I don’t work with either anymore but back in 2017 I made the switch from C# to Java and it felt like a breath of fresh air when it came to the maturity and capability of JVM tooling compared to what’s available for .NET.
  - ablob 3y ago
    I'm curious, what kind of tooling are we talking about?
  - winrid 3y ago
    Interesting. Did you try Jetbrains Rider as an IDE?
  - acedTrex 3y ago
    The dotnet ecosystem is incredibly mature. Its as old as java in most tooling cases, IDE, Language, Build System etc. The runtime is the newish part.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      The ecosystem is certainly more mature than many smaller languages, but it is still in a different league than Java’s. Most of it is not too great copies of the corresponding Java library, often being made by Microsoft only, with plenty of paid options while in the java world all of it is open-source and free, while offering a much wider selection. Also, you will find a java library for that random new tech you want to use, while it is likely missing for .NET.
  - NBJack 3y ago
    Try JetBrains Rider, and be sure you are using a recent flavor of dotnet. When I migrated past 4.x to 6 of the .Net ecosystem, it dramatically improved my ability to work and deploy in C# with their rather delightful build system. For example, in the Monogame game library, you can build a self contained binary for Windows, Linux or MacOSX nearly effortlessly with just a single command line.
    - soonnow 3y ago
      But these executables are quite huge, are they not?
      - maximilianburke 3y ago
        Could it be any worse than an Electron application?
- soonnow 3y ago
  I'm using C# and Java professionally. I've been using for a long time while I'm newish on C#. Also I'm on a older version of .net vs. a modern Java. Honestly to me the language doesn't feel that great. It always feels sluggish, to work with, like I'm fighting against the language. And then there is the ecosystem, Spring Boot is just such a breeze to get a web app running with all the integrations you could ever want being just there. Add in Lombok and Apache commons and it's a real pleasure to develop in Java for me.
_2z1p 3y ago
As an end user though, I honestly can’t think of any Java software I actually enjoy using. Minecraft? That’s literally the only thing that comes to mind.
- foobarbecue 3y ago
  Have you tried Jetbrains stuff?
  - lockhouse 3y ago
    I have. Maybe I don’t have enough RAM for it, but I find their IDEs to be slow and laggy. Xcode and Visual Studio Code feel so much snappier on the same machine.
    - KptMarchewa 3y ago
      I find it very weird that Xcode is faster than... anything, really
      - kaba0 3y ago
        It may be faster than.. visual studio.
        lockhouse 3y ago
        It IS faster than JetBrains, at least on my machine.
    - NBJack 3y ago
      Take some time to learn the navigation and refactoring abilities of the JetBrains family. It is IMHO unmatched by most. Using almost any other IDE feels like a downgrade, especially on large codebases with complex dependencies. Beyond Java, they have excellent support for Python, C#, Go, Javascript, and more. The engine builds a deep understanding of your code, which can make ctrl-space to suggest a method on an object feel delightful (and a Godsend on big Java names). I also strongly prefer the keyboard shortcut set JetBrains uses. Having to reach all the way up to my function keys for combo operations makes me sad; even when I use other IDEs I love using an Intellij keybinding when available to quickly jump in and be efficient. But to your point, I also tend to use it on higher end workstations (i.e. minimum of 16GB RAM, local repo pulls on fast SSDs, tons of logical cores, etc.).
0x445442 3y ago
Java doesn’t enforce any particular style. I’ve seen extremely procedural code that is full of statics where it’s obvious the authors were attempting to write C in Java. I’ve seen all manner of attempts at OOP where classes were meticulously restricted to nouns and the opposite where every class was a Service/Verb. Of late I’ve seen Java server side code that’s drank the reactive kool aid and done it’s level best to recreate NodeJS in Java. Now, your assertion about scaling to more engineers may be true but I’d argue tooling is the main reason for this because Java certainly doesn’t enforce any particular style of programming.

AtlasBarfed 3y ago

In javaland, the actual ideal is somewhere in the feature set supported by Groovy. CompileStatic groovy is probably the best, you get a lot of good features for no performance hit.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

29athrowaway 3y ago

https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpris... On a more serious note, most Java code on Github is now written by Copilot.

winrid 3y ago

Have you tried C#? It looks a lot nicer to work with than Java.

watermelon59 3y ago
The ecosystem is nowhere near as mature though. I don’t work with either anymore but back in 2017 I made the switch from C# to Java and it felt like a breath of fresh air when it came to the maturity and capability of JVM tooling compared to what’s available for .NET.
- ablob 3y ago
  I'm curious, what kind of tooling are we talking about?
- winrid 3y ago
  Interesting. Did you try Jetbrains Rider as an IDE?
- acedTrex 3y ago
  The dotnet ecosystem is incredibly mature. Its as old as java in most tooling cases, IDE, Language, Build System etc. The runtime is the newish part.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    The ecosystem is certainly more mature than many smaller languages, but it is still in a different league than Java’s. Most of it is not too great copies of the corresponding Java library, often being made by Microsoft only, with plenty of paid options while in the java world all of it is open-source and free, while offering a much wider selection. Also, you will find a java library for that random new tech you want to use, while it is likely missing for .NET.
- NBJack 3y ago
  Try JetBrains Rider, and be sure you are using a recent flavor of dotnet. When I migrated past 4.x to 6 of the .Net ecosystem, it dramatically improved my ability to work and deploy in C# with their rather delightful build system. For example, in the Monogame game library, you can build a self contained binary for Windows, Linux or MacOSX nearly effortlessly with just a single command line.
  - soonnow 3y ago
    But these executables are quite huge, are they not?
    - maximilianburke 3y ago
      Could it be any worse than an Electron application?
soonnow 3y ago
I'm using C# and Java professionally. I've been using for a long time while I'm newish on C#. Also I'm on a older version of .net vs. a modern Java. Honestly to me the language doesn't feel that great. It always feels sluggish, to work with, like I'm fighting against the language. And then there is the ecosystem, Spring Boot is just such a breeze to get a web app running with all the integrations you could ever want being just there. Add in Lombok and Apache commons and it's a real pleasure to develop in Java for me.

_2z1p 3y ago

As an end user though, I honestly can’t think of any Java software I actually enjoy using. Minecraft? That’s literally the only thing that comes to mind.

foobarbecue 3y ago
Have you tried Jetbrains stuff?
- lockhouse 3y ago
  I have. Maybe I don’t have enough RAM for it, but I find their IDEs to be slow and laggy. Xcode and Visual Studio Code feel so much snappier on the same machine.
  - KptMarchewa 3y ago
    I find it very weird that Xcode is faster than... anything, really
    - kaba0 3y ago
      It may be faster than.. visual studio.
      - lockhouse 3y ago
        It IS faster than JetBrains, at least on my machine.
  - NBJack 3y ago
    Take some time to learn the navigation and refactoring abilities of the JetBrains family. It is IMHO unmatched by most. Using almost any other IDE feels like a downgrade, especially on large codebases with complex dependencies. Beyond Java, they have excellent support for Python, C#, Go, Javascript, and more. The engine builds a deep understanding of your code, which can make ctrl-space to suggest a method on an object feel delightful (and a Godsend on big Java names). I also strongly prefer the keyboard shortcut set JetBrains uses. Having to reach all the way up to my function keys for combo operations makes me sad; even when I use other IDEs I love using an Intellij keybinding when available to quickly jump in and be efficient. But to your point, I also tend to use it on higher end workstations (i.e. minimum of 16GB RAM, local repo pulls on fast SSDs, tons of logical cores, etc.).

0x445442 3y ago

Java doesn’t enforce any particular style. I’ve seen extremely procedural code that is full of statics where it’s obvious the authors were attempting to write C in Java. I’ve seen all manner of attempts at OOP where classes were meticulously restricted to nouns and the opposite where every class was a Service/Verb. Of late I’ve seen Java server side code that’s drank the reactive kool aid and done it’s level best to recreate NodeJS in Java. Now, your assertion about scaling to more engineers may be true but I’d argue tooling is the main reason for this because Java certainly doesn’t enforce any particular style of programming.