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> Give people a meaning and they will do much better work. It’s not rocket science. This sounds good, but it's honestly just not realistic in a lot of jobs. Ho

> Give people a meaning and they will do much better work. It’s not rocket science. This sounds good, but it's honestly just not realistic in a lot of jobs. How are you going to make working at an Amazon warehouse meaningful? Stocking shelves at Walmart? Making fries at McDonalds? You can give the usual platitudes of how you're helping to make sure that people in your community can get the goods/food/whatever they need, but I think most people know that they're not really contributing to the betterment of society in a lot of jobs. And to be clear, that's not just menial labor - I've been a PM on some products that could disappear off the face of the earth without making anybody especially worse off (except the guy managing the part of the operation that used our software, but ultimately he'd go to a competitor and all would be fine). I think that it's often better to forget the idea that work needs to be deeply meaningful and treat people with the respect of recognizing that they're there for a paycheck and nothing else, and then try to do what you can to make the day-to-day work easier and more pleasant. Meanwhile I'll be hoping against hope that when these meaningless jobs get replaced by robots and AI that we get UBI and people can actually work to find meaning.

no_wizard 3y ago
I think people have this idea that meaning must not be fair compensation (or put another way, adequate compensation relative to the size of the company and demands required). I think excluding compensation from those jobs, meaning higher compensation, from the idea of meaning is losing sight of it all. There at a lot of jobs that if people were compensated better they would find it to be more meaningful to engage with. It can be a primary motivation to simply do well because they feel fairly valued. It’s not all heart and soul stuff
whiplash451 3y ago
Your point about warehouses and fast foods is a fallacy. If you talk to these workers, you can tell those who have a careful manager from those who don’t.
- idopmstuff 3y ago
  I don't understand what you mean. You can have a great manager but still not a meaningful job. That's what I meant when I talked about making the job easier and more pleasant - you can have a manager who optimizes for your happiness by making the job as non-tedious as possible. It may still be tedious in the grand scheme, but maybe they're rotating everyone through different tasks to make it less tedious, and you feel that and appreciate it. That's good and will definitely increase your satisfaction, but it doesn't mean the job is meaningful.
  - jaggederest 3y ago
    "Tedious" is different than "bullshit". A bullshit job is a combination of two things: pointlessness and tediousness. Painting pictures nobody buys is pointless, but it is not tedious if you're being creative. Likewise, working hard on an assembly line doing the exact same operation is incredibly tedious, but it is not pointless: the line has an output which is presumably useful. Mere tediousness would consign all warehouse jobs and janitorial positions to "bullshit" - which they are not, as specifically called out in the book. They might be unpleasant, but are definitely necessary. Parent commenter is stating that, with a good manager, they will remind you of the meaning inherent in the work. At McD's, perhaps: "Remember folks, we're getting hungry people fed, hard working folks deserve a fresh hot meal"
    - myshpa 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - cylinder714 3y ago
        [flagged]
        myshpa 3y ago
        No need to eat bugs, eat vegetables, fruits, legumes, grains, nuts and seeds, comrade, and you'll help save the environment for your children.
spencerflem 3y ago
Amazon warehouses & retail are actually called out in the book as not being bullshit, as in - the workers know exactly why people would want packages and find it useful.
scarface_74 3y ago
> How are you going to make working at an Amazon warehouse meaningful? Stocking shelves at Walmart? Making fries at McDonalds? Those are not “bullshit jobs” by any definition. An Amazon warehouse worker knows that someone has to do that job. The same is true for your other examples.

no_wizard 3y ago

I think people have this idea that meaning must not be fair compensation (or put another way, adequate compensation relative to the size of the company and demands required). I think excluding compensation from those jobs, meaning higher compensation, from the idea of meaning is losing sight of it all. There at a lot of jobs that if people were compensated better they would find it to be more meaningful to engage with. It can be a primary motivation to simply do well because they feel fairly valued. It’s not all heart and soul stuff

whiplash451 3y ago

Your point about warehouses and fast foods is a fallacy. If you talk to these workers, you can tell those who have a careful manager from those who don’t.

idopmstuff 3y ago
I don't understand what you mean. You can have a great manager but still not a meaningful job. That's what I meant when I talked about making the job easier and more pleasant - you can have a manager who optimizes for your happiness by making the job as non-tedious as possible. It may still be tedious in the grand scheme, but maybe they're rotating everyone through different tasks to make it less tedious, and you feel that and appreciate it. That's good and will definitely increase your satisfaction, but it doesn't mean the job is meaningful.
- jaggederest 3y ago
  "Tedious" is different than "bullshit". A bullshit job is a combination of two things: pointlessness and tediousness. Painting pictures nobody buys is pointless, but it is not tedious if you're being creative. Likewise, working hard on an assembly line doing the exact same operation is incredibly tedious, but it is not pointless: the line has an output which is presumably useful. Mere tediousness would consign all warehouse jobs and janitorial positions to "bullshit" - which they are not, as specifically called out in the book. They might be unpleasant, but are definitely necessary. Parent commenter is stating that, with a good manager, they will remind you of the meaning inherent in the work. At McD's, perhaps: "Remember folks, we're getting hungry people fed, hard working folks deserve a fresh hot meal"
  - myshpa 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - cylinder714 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - myshpa 3y ago
        No need to eat bugs, eat vegetables, fruits, legumes, grains, nuts and seeds, comrade, and you'll help save the environment for your children.

spencerflem 3y ago

Amazon warehouses & retail are actually called out in the book as not being bullshit, as in - the workers know exactly why people would want packages and find it useful.

scarface_74 3y ago

> How are you going to make working at an Amazon warehouse meaningful? Stocking shelves at Walmart? Making fries at McDonalds? Those are not “bullshit jobs” by any definition. An Amazon warehouse worker knows that someone has to do that job. The same is true for your other examples.