8 ms·
They just pirated my open source 8088 BIOS
- justsomehnguy 3y agoAdditional context in [0], [1]. LGR review of the machine [2]. I would recommend reading [1] because it confirms the GPL violation but paints interesting picture of the reason. [0] https://arstechnica.com/civis/threads/brand-new-laptop-recreates-1981%E2%80%99s-ibm-pc-complete-with-8088-cpu-and-640kb-of-ram.1492119/page-6#post-41895907 https://arstechnica.com/civis/threads/brand-new-laptop-recre... [1] https://arstechnica.com/civis/threads/brand-new-laptop-recreates-1981%E2%80%99s-ibm-pc-complete-with-8088-cpu-and-640kb-of-ram.1492119/page-6#post-41900498 https://arstechnica.com/civis/threads/brand-new-laptop-recre... [2] https://youtu.be/6bODiZ5bP84?t=442 https://youtu.be/6bODiZ5bP84?t=442 "So I Bought Those Weird New AliExpress Retro PCs…"
- AllegedAlec 3y agoSounds very much like a Chinese PR OP. "Oh yeah we would've loved to attribute as per the license of the code we stole, but those dang online shops won't let us, so we just stole it and never mentioned it"
- dixie_land 3y ago[flagged]
- TheLoafOfBread 3y agoI wonder if it works the same when one would steal IP from Chinese company.
- ronsor 3y agoNice try, but Tencent cops will be at your door next week. Chinese companies stealing from each other is not counted, as the government makes them play "nice enough."
- DaiPlusPlus 3y agoTencent doesn't own anything worth stealing. If I suddenly found myself as the owner of TikTok I think I'd be terminally embarrassed.
- AllegedAlec 3y ago> if there is no monetary loss then it is "no harm no foul" and completely reasonable I think am important added phrase there would be for Chinese companies. They have no issues stealing from non-Chinese to those people's detriment.
- squarefoot 3y agoI don't know how much of the explanation by the Book8088 dev is bullshit, but he exposes a valid point which could be rephrased as: if you attribute copyright to the author, and someone else complains about anything, the platform can take down the product page immediately. We've seen this happening in similar contexts quite often, such as bogus DMCA complaints on YouTube that result in immediate takedowns and enormous efforts from the authors to reinstate the pages. Might be just PR, but the point is sound to me; copyright laws are necessary, but the way they're implemented is total crap.
- DaiPlusPlus 3y ago> if you attribute copyright to the author, and someone else complains about anything, the platform can take down the product page immediately I'm having trouble following your line of reasoning here...
- anonymouskimmer 3y agoIf you aren't the copyright holder to the work you are presenting you can't counter-assert your rights to publish against the takedown claim. I don't get how this applies to this situation. Since the copyrighted work isn't being "published" outside of the physical computer.
- kmeisthax 3y agoIn this case you have a license to republish the work (the GPL, if you followed it correctly), so you have rights to counter-assert.
- anonymouskimmer 3y agoI'm sure Amazon, Google, and everyone else like them make it really difficult to communicate such nuance.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
- dunham 3y ago> I would recommend reading [1] because it confirms the GPL violation but paints interesting picture of the reason. I'm not seeing that, but maybe I'm misunderstanding something. [1] includes: > we are also shared our change without reservation to every enthusiast (buyer). Which to me says they're freely sharing the source with buyers. And I see in the GPL: > For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must pass on to the recipients the same freedoms that you received. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights. Which I understand as "you only have to share source code with buyers" (but they can do what they will with it).
- justsomehnguy 3y ago>> BOOK8088: And the foreign trade company words will not even consider these details. A similar thing happens with naming products. For example, we gave it a name, called BOOK8088 . If the name is registered as a trademark, we can only change the name. There are many professional complainers who make money from this. Of course, I knew there was a big problem with violating the GPL at very beginning, and I was preparing for something later. I didn't even expect it to develop so fast. > Which I understand as "you only have to share source code with buyers" (but they can do what they will with it). You need a proper attribution. This comment goes at lengths explaining it [0] but removing the copyright and/or authorship (attribution in a general sense) is breaking the license attribution requirements. [0] https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/4577/does-gplv3-require-attribution#4582 https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/4577/does-gpl...
- derefr 3y agoFrom your citation, I think it'd be valid attribution if the BIOS setup UI had a "licensing" tab, that spelled out the IP that this BIOS was derived from. (This is how e.g. iOS and Android do licensing: you drill down into Settings > About > Licensing and all the IP declarations are spelled out there.) Provided they had that, then the initial "vanity" copyright notice on boot would be extraneous, and they could freely change or remove it. Without that kind of thing, the on-boot notice is the "load-bearing" UI attribution, and must be retained.
- RobotToaster 3y agoIt sounds like they are distributing the modified source code, so the only violation is removal of the attribution? I don't know anything about Amazon, &c, policies, to know if what they say is true, or possibly a misunderstanding?
- pshirshov 3y agoThere is no reason to buy these clones on Ali while there is Monotech NuXT.
- undersuit 3y agoWell I have to be informed of it's existence, so thanks.
- kitsunesoba 3y ago> Monotech NuXT Hadn't heard of this before, but it's a great concept. I love the idea of modern takes on retro tech. Wish it were more practical to do something like this for 68k or PPC Macs… unfortunately I don't think there are any usable 68k or PPC derivatives currently in production which limits possibilities. The closest thing I've seen are FPGA-based setups like the Plus Too[0]. [0]: https://www.bigmessowires.com/plus-too/ https://www.bigmessowires.com/plus-too/
- agg23 3y agoFor easier access, you can run the Plus Too core on the MiSTer FPGA project, which is a bit more prevalent and user friendly (plus supports many, many more systems) (https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/MacPlus_MiSTer https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/MacPlus_MiSTer).
- nico 3y agoFrom the Plus Two site: > The Mac’s 512 x 342 screen is pixel doubled to fit Do you know what algorithm they use to “pixel double” the screen?
- kitsunesoba 3y agoI don't actually know but I'd imagine it'd have to be nearest neighbor to maintain crisp lines.
- monocasa 3y agoPixel doubling typically refers to the algorithm itself. Simply making each quad (set of 2x2 aligned pixels) in the final image match one of the pixels in the source image.
- RecycledEle 3y agoImagine a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Imagine the devices that pirate GPL code being seized, and when the developers explain they received BSA training that said they did not have to live by the GPL, the assets of BSA member companies are seized on conspiracy charges (after a fair trial.) Imagine.
- RobotToaster 3y agoBirmingham Small Arms Company?
- AlexandrB 3y agoBusiness Software Alliance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Alliance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Alliance
- komadori 3y agoBusiness Software Alliance, a Microsoft-backed software licence enforcement outfit.
- mavhc 3y agoHave they published a legal opinion on GPL?
- hulitu 3y agoSteve Ballmer said that "Linux is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches,"
- ttfkam 3y agoKeep in mind that he said this 25-30 years ago when co-running a company whose business was dominating the computing landscape and in direct conflict with the Open Source upstarts. Also, the GPL was maybe 10 years old at that point? A lot has changed since then. There aren't many people who were correct in their predictions about the computer industry at large, the web, or the internet 30 years ago.
- cat_plus_plus 3y agoYes, and a bunch of other things (look at hard drive content), however everyone should give them a pass since they recreated arguably the most important computer in history for developers and enthusiasts. With an emulator, there is always a question if your software would have worked the same on the original device, or if the game experience is exactly as it was intended to be. Now I have a way to check if my code in fact runs on a real 8088 and CGA.
- AshamedCaptain 3y agoNo, you don't, because among many other things, the BIOS will be different. It's highly likely even the most inaccurate of emulators will actually be more accurate.
- cat_plus_plus 3y agoYou are not going to be using BIOS much for any fun 8088 programming
- NotYourLawyer 3y agoThen do something about it. The DMCA is actually pretty easy to use.
- sp332 3y agoNot in China it isn't. (Not that China doesn't have any IP enforcement, but it's not the DMCA.)
- NotYourLawyer 3y agoBut they’re being imported to the US.
- justsomehnguy 3y agoWhich leads to [0] and nothing to the actual entity violating the IP rights. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36371745 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36371745
- daneel_w 3y agoThe DMCA is toothless in China.
- Twirrim 3y agoWhy would you expect US laws to apply to China?
- derefr 3y agoI believe you can use the DMCA to get importation of a violating product into the US restricted — which is, I think, what the GP is suggesting here.
- NotYourLawyer 3y agoI expect US laws to apply to goods imported into the US.
- StingyJelly 3y agoIt might be that in China there's not a strong opensource culture. Here's a video from Naomi Wu dragging umidigy into compliance where she talks about the issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj04MKykmnQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj04MKykmnQ
- lockhouse 3y agoChinese culture doesn’t respect intellectual property in general, why would they treat open source licenses any differently?
- kevin_thibedeau 3y agoThose computers took a fairly significant effort to design, source components, and run through manufacturing. You'd think at some point they'd be self aware enough that the open source they're adulterating also required similar levels of gratis effort and should be afforded some respect.
- cdumler 3y agoIf you looking into Chinese culture [1][2], it is astonishingly autocratic. Creativity is frowned on, and criticizing superiors is nearly impossible. There is a very strong "do what is asked, no questions" attitude. Business has very strong "nothing matters once I have your money" policy. I took South East Asian history in college, and Chinese culture is abundantly self-sabotaging. It was morbidly fascinating, which is why I took several courses on it. [1] https://www.youtube.com/@serpentza https://www.youtube.com/@serpentza [2] https://www.youtube.com/@laowhy86 https://www.youtube.com/@laowhy86
- codedokode 3y ago> Business has very strong "nothing matters once I have your money" policy. Western business now has adopted "nothing matters once I got your personal data" policy though. It seems that "nothing matters" policy is not restricted to Asia.
- Hackbraten 3y agoA Chinese YouTuber has traveled to a company who wouldn’t take the GPL seriously [0]. I wish more people had the nerve to do that instead of letting it slide. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj04MKykmnQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj04MKykmnQ
- nsajko 3y agoShout out to Sexy Cyborg, her HN acc: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=SexyCyborg https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=SexyCyborg
- loco5niner 3y agoWoah, can we put a NSFW on that link? Thx
- shadowgovt 3y ago> I don't really understand why one would pirate an open source project... Just use it according to the GPL license. Redistribute the modified code, and leave the attribution to the code authors... Is it that difficult? We have more than enough examples of commercial companies using GPL software without contributing back that I have to assume this question is rhetorical by now.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dark-star 3y agoI came to the conclusion that it is simply their culture. Chinese people, in general, don't have a strong sense of "mine" vs "someone else's". They seem to think that if it's there, then they can just as well take it and do whatever with it. I had a Chinese friend at University. Smart guy, and friendly, but he just couldn't understand why people in his dorm got mad at him every time he took their stuff from the fridge and ate or drank it. "it was there, I was thirsty! And if you insist, I will replace it..."
- varjag 3y agoI worked with Taiwanese people, haven't had a whiff of that. On the other hand petty theft was a very common occurrence in Soviet daily life, and the mainland owes to its legacy more than to Confucius. So sure, could be the culture but in a surprising way.
- retrac 3y agoTaiwan and modern mainland China have about a century of separation at this point, with very different historical paths. China: civil war -> WW II -> civil war -> communist rule -> several decades of int'l isolation. Taiwan: Japanese colony -> western aligned dictatorship -> liberalized democracy. Recent Taiwanese history has been less tumultuous in many ways, and many aspects of traditional (pre-20th century) Chinese culture are relatively more intact; particularly in areas like religion.
- kelnos 3y agoTaiwanese and Chinese people are culturally very different these days. They still have a lot of the same "historical" cultural underpinnings, but day to day life and attitudes among the people are sharply different.
- ksec 3y ago>don't have a strong sense of "mine" vs "someone else's". They do. But in a different way. Everything "someone else's" belongs to the people. So they take it. Everything "mine" belongs to the people too, so they allow others to take it. The problem is they have a different definition of people. And that definition changes depending on their interest and status. Imagine replacing people with Chinese and they are fine. But those who are Anti-CCP, not fine.
- userbinator 3y agoThe Chinese view on IP is very different from the western one, but in some ways it's just as "open source". These articles give a good overview: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8807651 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8807651 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5703946 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5703946
- asylteltine 3y agoGood on ars to update the article
- glurblur 3y agoMy god. I would have hoped HN to have less bias and ignorance towards China. To be clear, im totally against the company pirating the BIOS and not attributing the author. But, the comments here regarding China just reads like r/geopolitics or r/wolrdnews. Taking some classes on east asia doesn’t make you an expert on China. Watching a couple of YouTube videos doesn’t either. Not everything you hear in the west is absolutely true. Same goes for things you hear in China. You don’t know the culture til you lived there. I didn’t understand American culture until I came to the US and lived for more than a decade here, yet western media is so prevalent in China and I thought I totally knew what the US was like before coming. I was so wrong. Please go and explore the world with your own eyes. It’s really hard to read comments like these because they appear unbiased and true, but pretty far from reality. Regarding how Chinese deals with IP, I will attribute it more towards laws and the enforcement of it. You simply don’t get punished for stealing IP until someone powerful sues you. IMO, better IP laws and enforcement will make most of these issues go away. Its not cultural
- Incipient 3y agoNow that China is starting to develop their own IP in some areas (eg EVs) I'm curious how they react if anyone rips off their IP. I can't imagine they'll react well, but I wonder if it's a genuine "IP isn't a thing" or if it's just "ripping people off is ok it it's for our benefit".