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The Obama Administration absolutely persecuted the shit out of any and all whistleblowers and journalism sources. His use of the Espionage Act was absolutely un

The Obama Administration absolutely persecuted the shit out of any and all whistleblowers and journalism sources. His use of the Espionage Act was absolutely unprecedented. If you think people lack courage, you don't have to look far as to why.

nameistaken 3y ago
How do I downvote comments?
- raphman 3y ago
  You click on the downvote arrow. However, you need to have sufficient karma for the downvote arrow to appear. You do not appear to have passed this threshold yet. Also, if this was not a honest question but just a rethorical one: please read and take to heart the HN guidelines [1]. Essential part: It is better to explain why you disagree with the parent poster than to post snarky comments that do not contribute to the discussion. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
heybrendan 3y ago
I'd like to learn more. Sources I can refer to?
- vonwoodson 3y ago
  Binging “obama whistleblower crackdown” returns some pretty conservative leaning and conspiracy looking websites.
  - bigger_inside 3y ago
    it's really interesting where this comes from, and why this seems to some such an easy "gotcha". first off, that these come up doesn't mean they're wrong, though it does likely mean they're shallow. more deeply, this is an old, well-known dynamic often decried by the left. the left will dig deeper into often pretty obvious social dysfunctions and pioneer a social critique, analyzing the political and economic structures and systems that underpin it, and turn it into a challenge to existing authorities. This challenge is complicated, it hinges on teaching you political economy first, before it can even start to tell you what the systemic problem actually is. but it touches on real problems people feel every day. The conservatives make a media thing out of it. Now, mass media, forever, has made their money by selling your prejudices back to you; from entertainment to news, they all basically work this way. Conservatives work this way as well (making for that sweet synergy between the two): it takes a run-down, stripped-down, dumbed-down version of the criticism, strips all political economy analysis from it (can't have them blame capitalism!), frinds some easy scarecrow figures - Gates, Soros, whoever (not that they're not horrible people, but that's not the point really), ascribes "debauchery and corruption" to them (because then the SYSTEM is fine). In the end, when people then google the problems, they find these easy stories, which makes them associate the identification of the problem with these dumbed-down assaults. Then even mentioning the problem becomes that.
    - zmgsabst 3y ago
      The same happens in reverse: Conservatives will document how a lack of principles means that a mechanism in society will converge to something damaging, to have Progressives shout about how they’re “istaphobes” without that even being a relevant complaint. They’re particularly vicious about that when conservatives point out that the proposed systemic solution converges to a breakdown in society or worsening of the situation — eg, trying to use systemic bigotry to “solve” systemic bigotry. These shallow bullying articles get spread around a network of blogs, small media outlets, YouTube channels, etc. and then dominate search results.
      - reddit_refugee3 3y ago
        I'm curious, what would be some examples where conservatives warned that some "lack of principles" would lead to a "breakdown of society," and were actually correct? Certainly not same sex marriage, abortion, or any thing that conservatives have fought against during my lifetime. It sounds, to me, a lot like the "degenerate" label that the Nazis loved to throw around.
        zmgsabst 3y ago
        I gave one in my post — using systemic racism to “fix” historic damage from racism hasn’t worked and has worsened the problem over the past few decades: the failure to follow principles (ie, equality) has resulted in bad outcomes. We see the same problem with systemic misandry in education: sexism in schools is now worse than when Title IX was enacted. They were also correct about the problems with social welfare destroying families and lax enforcement leading to a breakdown of cities, eg Seattle and San Francisco downtowns. > It sounds, to me, a lot like the "degenerate" label that the Nazis loved to throw around. Implying that I’m a Nazi while failing to address the specific example in my original post is exactly the bad faith responses we’re discussing in this thread. That kind of shallow ad hominem is corrosive to meaningful dialog. Thank you for exemplifying.
        reddit_refugee3 3y ago
  - busterarm 3y ago
    The top hits for 'Obama whistleblowers' for me are from Time, Politico, The New Yorker and The Nation. I don't see a conservative-leaning site (Cato) until the middle of the third page of results... Even The Atlantic and HuffPo come up higher. When progressive documentarians Brave New Films even saw fit to make a documentary film about the issue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Whistleblowers:_Free_Press_and_the_National_Security_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Whistleblowers:_Free_Pr...), you know the situation is dire.
    - vonwoodson 3y ago
      Well, we all get different results. Here's my top three: Obama's Crackdown on Whistleblowers | The Nation https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/obamas-crackdown-whistleblowers https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/obamas-crackdown-w... Obama's War on Whistleblowers - CounterPunch.org counterpunch.org Obama’s Plan to Crack Down on Whistleblowers Leaked https://truthout.org/articles/obamas-plan-to https://truthout.org/articles/obamas-plan-to... Obama’s Legacy: A Historic War On Whistleblowers - LI … https://www.longislandpress.com/2017/01/14/obamas https://www.longislandpress.com/2017/01/14/obamas...
- smitty1110 3y ago
  The New Yorker has a short overview[1]. The ACLU has a more complete list[2]. The American Prospect and Cato Institute have some articles if you search around, but I'm not a huge fan of their work. 1: https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/obama-leaves-trump-a-mixed-legacy-on-whistle-blowers https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/obama-leaves-tr... 2: https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/leak-prosecutions-obama-takes-it-11-or-should-we https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/leak-prosecutions-obam...
mptest 3y ago
Don't have to look far as to why indeed. Reading Pegasus[0] about Nso groups 0 click exploits used against any dissident journalists in regimes like Morocco, saudi arabia, (was on khashoggi and his partners phones), mexico, france, everywhere. the only thing protecting any of us is those with enough money to purchase software like pegasus don't deem us worthy of the license fee. Soon as anyone rises above that fee your phone is basically live reporting to anyone with enough money. Doesn't lead to a restful nights sleep that book. They fricken built a turing machine out of pdf interpreter components to escape the encapsulation/vm for incoming files.[1] [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59808055 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59808055 [1] https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2021/12/a-deep-dive-into-nso-zero-click.html?m=1 https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2021/12/a-deep-dive-i...
jongjong 3y ago
Exactly. Now the system essentially filters out all the honest and/or courageous candidates before they even get to the primaries. Any candidate you hear about is almost certainly a compromised individual who can be 100% controlled by the corporate elite. The 'evil puppet' selection process is so pervasive, it has spread beyond government and through many large companies. I think many of us have experienced this. If you're an honest person, you will be punished for it. On the other hand, if you show that you're a cheater and a liar, you will be rewarded and will progress through the system. I remember several moments in my career when a boss or an investor literally tested me to see if I was a cheater. I suspect I failed these tests and it's why I wasn't promoted and why I didn't receive funding. It used to be that elite status was acquired through bravery, intelligence and integrity, but these days, not only are elites not self-made, they are actually selected for having the exact opposite characteristics.
- anf 3y ago
  It's not binary: bosses and investors want to know who will obey the rules as you see them for a variety of reasons. They'll fund / promote based on the needs of the projects you will likely face.
- rm_-rf_slash 3y ago
  I wouldn’t mythologize the elites of the past too much. FDR’s grandfather made his fortune selling opium in China.
  - jongjong 3y ago
    Ok so in this case he was not a moral person but at least it sounds like he may have had the other two characteristics. I think a major difference between now and then is that the world was a far more adverse and chaotic place for many reasons; people died frequently from all sorts of diseases, there were more wars and invasions, traveling to other countries was potentially life-threatening (e.g. you could be killed by the natives or succumb to previously unknown threats like exotic diseases, spiders, snakes, lions, tigers, poisonous plants, etc... Not to mention the substantial difficulties involved in communicating with locals in a foreign language). There really wasn't any support or fallback if one's plans failed; you would just die, no second chances. The elite of today couldn't hold a candle to those who came before them. Today, they're mostly a bunch of spoiled brats who inherited a lot of wealth and never faced any real adversity in their lives (which wasn't of their own making to begin with)...
somenameforme 3y ago
Ellsberg initially stood to spend the rest of his life in prison, with the max penalty for what he was charged with of being 115 years. And with something this big, the possibility of him never even making it to trial would certainly have crossed his mind. And he had no way of really knowing how any of this would work out. Courage is about doing something because it's right, in spite of potentially severe consequences. Without that latter component, you're just being a decent human being. Ellsberg himself has commented on this extensively as well. Wiki [1] mentions moment where he finally decided to do it: -------------- [Ellsberg] experienced an epiphany attending a War Resisters League conference at Haverford College in August 1969, listening to a speech given by a draft resister named Randy Kehler, who said he was "very excited" that he would soon be able to join his friends in prison.[12] Ellsberg described his reaction: And he said this very calmly. I hadn't known that he was about to be sentenced for draft resistance. It hit me as a total surprise and shock, because I heard his words in the midst of actually feeling proud of my country listening to him. And then I heard he was going to prison. It wasn't what he said exactly that changed my worldview. It was the example he was setting with his life. How his words in general showed that he was a stellar American, and that he was going to jail as a very deliberate choice – because he thought it was the right thing to do. There was no question in my mind that my government was involved in an unjust war that was going to continue and get larger. Thousands of young men were dying each year. I left the auditorium and found a deserted men's room. I sat on the floor and cried for over an hour, just sobbing. The only time in my life I've reacted to something like that.[citation needed] Decades later, reflecting on Kehler's decision, Ellsberg said: Randy Kehler never thought his going to prison would end the war. If I hadn't met Randy Kehler it wouldn't have occurred to me to copy [the Pentagon Papers]. His actions spoke to me as no mere words would have done. He put the right question in my mind at the right time. -------------- [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Disaffection_with_Vietnam_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Disaffection_w...

nameistaken 3y ago

How do I downvote comments?

raphman 3y ago
You click on the downvote arrow. However, you need to have sufficient karma for the downvote arrow to appear. You do not appear to have passed this threshold yet. Also, if this was not a honest question but just a rethorical one: please read and take to heart the HN guidelines [1]. Essential part: It is better to explain why you disagree with the parent poster than to post snarky comments that do not contribute to the discussion. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

heybrendan 3y ago

I'd like to learn more. Sources I can refer to?

vonwoodson 3y ago
Binging “obama whistleblower crackdown” returns some pretty conservative leaning and conspiracy looking websites.
- bigger_inside 3y ago
  it's really interesting where this comes from, and why this seems to some such an easy "gotcha". first off, that these come up doesn't mean they're wrong, though it does likely mean they're shallow. more deeply, this is an old, well-known dynamic often decried by the left. the left will dig deeper into often pretty obvious social dysfunctions and pioneer a social critique, analyzing the political and economic structures and systems that underpin it, and turn it into a challenge to existing authorities. This challenge is complicated, it hinges on teaching you political economy first, before it can even start to tell you what the systemic problem actually is. but it touches on real problems people feel every day. The conservatives make a media thing out of it. Now, mass media, forever, has made their money by selling your prejudices back to you; from entertainment to news, they all basically work this way. Conservatives work this way as well (making for that sweet synergy between the two): it takes a run-down, stripped-down, dumbed-down version of the criticism, strips all political economy analysis from it (can't have them blame capitalism!), frinds some easy scarecrow figures - Gates, Soros, whoever (not that they're not horrible people, but that's not the point really), ascribes "debauchery and corruption" to them (because then the SYSTEM is fine). In the end, when people then google the problems, they find these easy stories, which makes them associate the identification of the problem with these dumbed-down assaults. Then even mentioning the problem becomes that.
  - zmgsabst 3y ago
    The same happens in reverse: Conservatives will document how a lack of principles means that a mechanism in society will converge to something damaging, to have Progressives shout about how they’re “istaphobes” without that even being a relevant complaint. They’re particularly vicious about that when conservatives point out that the proposed systemic solution converges to a breakdown in society or worsening of the situation — eg, trying to use systemic bigotry to “solve” systemic bigotry. These shallow bullying articles get spread around a network of blogs, small media outlets, YouTube channels, etc. and then dominate search results.
    - reddit_refugee3 3y ago
      I'm curious, what would be some examples where conservatives warned that some "lack of principles" would lead to a "breakdown of society," and were actually correct? Certainly not same sex marriage, abortion, or any thing that conservatives have fought against during my lifetime. It sounds, to me, a lot like the "degenerate" label that the Nazis loved to throw around.
      - zmgsabst 3y ago
        I gave one in my post — using systemic racism to “fix” historic damage from racism hasn’t worked and has worsened the problem over the past few decades: the failure to follow principles (ie, equality) has resulted in bad outcomes. We see the same problem with systemic misandry in education: sexism in schools is now worse than when Title IX was enacted. They were also correct about the problems with social welfare destroying families and lax enforcement leading to a breakdown of cities, eg Seattle and San Francisco downtowns. > It sounds, to me, a lot like the "degenerate" label that the Nazis loved to throw around. Implying that I’m a Nazi while failing to address the specific example in my original post is exactly the bad faith responses we’re discussing in this thread. That kind of shallow ad hominem is corrosive to meaningful dialog. Thank you for exemplifying.
        reddit_refugee3 3y ago
- busterarm 3y ago
  The top hits for 'Obama whistleblowers' for me are from Time, Politico, The New Yorker and The Nation. I don't see a conservative-leaning site (Cato) until the middle of the third page of results... Even The Atlantic and HuffPo come up higher. When progressive documentarians Brave New Films even saw fit to make a documentary film about the issue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Whistleblowers:_Free_Press_and_the_National_Security_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Whistleblowers:_Free_Pr...), you know the situation is dire.
  - vonwoodson 3y ago
    Well, we all get different results. Here's my top three: Obama's Crackdown on Whistleblowers | The Nation https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/obamas-crackdown-whistleblowers https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/obamas-crackdown-w... Obama's War on Whistleblowers - CounterPunch.org counterpunch.org Obama’s Plan to Crack Down on Whistleblowers Leaked https://truthout.org/articles/obamas-plan-to https://truthout.org/articles/obamas-plan-to... Obama’s Legacy: A Historic War On Whistleblowers - LI … https://www.longislandpress.com/2017/01/14/obamas https://www.longislandpress.com/2017/01/14/obamas...
smitty1110 3y ago
The New Yorker has a short overview[1]. The ACLU has a more complete list[2]. The American Prospect and Cato Institute have some articles if you search around, but I'm not a huge fan of their work. 1: https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/obama-leaves-trump-a-mixed-legacy-on-whistle-blowers https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/obama-leaves-tr... 2: https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/leak-prosecutions-obama-takes-it-11-or-should-we https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/leak-prosecutions-obam...

mptest 3y ago

Don't have to look far as to why indeed. Reading Pegasus[0] about Nso groups 0 click exploits used against any dissident journalists in regimes like Morocco, saudi arabia, (was on khashoggi and his partners phones), mexico, france, everywhere. the only thing protecting any of us is those with enough money to purchase software like pegasus don't deem us worthy of the license fee. Soon as anyone rises above that fee your phone is basically live reporting to anyone with enough money. Doesn't lead to a restful nights sleep that book. They fricken built a turing machine out of pdf interpreter components to escape the encapsulation/vm for incoming files.[1] [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59808055 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59808055 [1] https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2021/12/a-deep-dive-into-nso-zero-click.html?m=1 https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2021/12/a-deep-dive-i...

jongjong 3y ago

Exactly. Now the system essentially filters out all the honest and/or courageous candidates before they even get to the primaries. Any candidate you hear about is almost certainly a compromised individual who can be 100% controlled by the corporate elite. The 'evil puppet' selection process is so pervasive, it has spread beyond government and through many large companies. I think many of us have experienced this. If you're an honest person, you will be punished for it. On the other hand, if you show that you're a cheater and a liar, you will be rewarded and will progress through the system. I remember several moments in my career when a boss or an investor literally tested me to see if I was a cheater. I suspect I failed these tests and it's why I wasn't promoted and why I didn't receive funding. It used to be that elite status was acquired through bravery, intelligence and integrity, but these days, not only are elites not self-made, they are actually selected for having the exact opposite characteristics.

anf 3y ago
It's not binary: bosses and investors want to know who will obey the rules as you see them for a variety of reasons. They'll fund / promote based on the needs of the projects you will likely face.
rm_-rf_slash 3y ago
I wouldn’t mythologize the elites of the past too much. FDR’s grandfather made his fortune selling opium in China.
- jongjong 3y ago
  Ok so in this case he was not a moral person but at least it sounds like he may have had the other two characteristics. I think a major difference between now and then is that the world was a far more adverse and chaotic place for many reasons; people died frequently from all sorts of diseases, there were more wars and invasions, traveling to other countries was potentially life-threatening (e.g. you could be killed by the natives or succumb to previously unknown threats like exotic diseases, spiders, snakes, lions, tigers, poisonous plants, etc... Not to mention the substantial difficulties involved in communicating with locals in a foreign language). There really wasn't any support or fallback if one's plans failed; you would just die, no second chances. The elite of today couldn't hold a candle to those who came before them. Today, they're mostly a bunch of spoiled brats who inherited a lot of wealth and never faced any real adversity in their lives (which wasn't of their own making to begin with)...

somenameforme 3y ago

Ellsberg initially stood to spend the rest of his life in prison, with the max penalty for what he was charged with of being 115 years. And with something this big, the possibility of him never even making it to trial would certainly have crossed his mind. And he had no way of really knowing how any of this would work out. Courage is about doing something because it's right, in spite of potentially severe consequences. Without that latter component, you're just being a decent human being. Ellsberg himself has commented on this extensively as well. Wiki [1] mentions moment where he finally decided to do it: -------------- [Ellsberg] experienced an epiphany attending a War Resisters League conference at Haverford College in August 1969, listening to a speech given by a draft resister named Randy Kehler, who said he was "very excited" that he would soon be able to join his friends in prison.[12] Ellsberg described his reaction: And he said this very calmly. I hadn't known that he was about to be sentenced for draft resistance. It hit me as a total surprise and shock, because I heard his words in the midst of actually feeling proud of my country listening to him. And then I heard he was going to prison. It wasn't what he said exactly that changed my worldview. It was the example he was setting with his life. How his words in general showed that he was a stellar American, and that he was going to jail as a very deliberate choice – because he thought it was the right thing to do. There was no question in my mind that my government was involved in an unjust war that was going to continue and get larger. Thousands of young men were dying each year. I left the auditorium and found a deserted men's room. I sat on the floor and cried for over an hour, just sobbing. The only time in my life I've reacted to something like that.[citation needed] Decades later, reflecting on Kehler's decision, Ellsberg said: Randy Kehler never thought his going to prison would end the war. If I hadn't met Randy Kehler it wouldn't have occurred to me to copy [the Pentagon Papers]. His actions spoke to me as no mere words would have done. He put the right question in my mind at the right time. -------------- [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Disaffection_with_Vietnam_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Disaffection_w...