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Show HN: 77 Year old launches SaaS platform today. Seeks feedback
Richard Montgomery (rm@propbox.co). I believe PropBox is the first advertising platform to facilitate a home seller and buyer to directly negotiate and close real estate transactions within the platform and zero commissions entirely online. Looking for feedback to continuously improve the product.
- joshuawithers 3y agoI'm guessing this is a USA-based website made by someone in the USA? The tell is that the website does not offer any information about the market it serves, or intends to serves, and most Americans don't realise there's a global audience on the internet. Maybe add something that says "Australians, this isn't for you."
- montgomster 3y agoHello joshuawithers. Thanks for giving me a chance to respond. If an australian owns a home in the U.S. they are a potential customer. Or if they live in Peru and want to buy a home in the US, they are a potential customer. You are correct that we only offer it in the United States. Thanks for your comment. Richard
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- propboxsocials 3y agoFolks who are providing feedback. Pls go further than home page, try to list property,chat, send offer, etc :)
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- gus_massa 3y agoDid you work in real state before? Can you provide some info about the tech stack? Did you wrote the code or you hired someone?
- arjonagelhout 3y agoI found this website linked on their website under “Blog”: https://dearmonty.com/ https://dearmonty.com/ It seems they do have quite some experience in real estate
- montgomster 3y agoHello arjonagelhout. I feel accomplished, but I learn something new every day. There are over 600 posts on the dearmonty website. I write a syndicated Q&A column every week, so I feel it is helpful. Ann Landers was my hero and she answered every letter. I have done the same. lost count but over 5000 replies. This is how I learn more about the problems people have. Thanks for the plug. Richard
- dewey 3y ago> Access denied Error code 1020 You do not have access to dearmonty.com. The site owner may have set restrictions that prevent you from accessing the site. Hm, seems inaccessible for me.
- montgomster 3y agoHi,gus_massa. I have worked in real estate since I was 21 years old - never had another job. It has been an amazing ride. On your tech stack question, I can barely handle my iPhone. But if you would like to know more I can ask my co-founder if he can talk to you. Might be awhile we are both putting in very long days right now. My email address is on the top. Please get in touch. Thanks for your questions. Richard
- totallywrong 3y agoLooks great! Thank you for sharing, you are an inspiration building this at 77. I can only hope to still love what I do and have the motivation at that age.
- montgomster 3y agoHey, totallywrong, I love the Clint Eastwood story. He was playing golf with Toby Keith a few years ago and Toby asked on the course how he could keep going writing, producing, and acting at his age (like 90?). Clint was about to swing, he paused, and said "I keep the old man out." That is my inspiration. Whenyou love what you do and you have a purpose it is never work. Thanks for your comment. Richard
- tmountain 3y agoI like your landing page, what did you use?
- dreadlordbone 3y agolooks like tailwind/react combo but custo
- montgomster 3y agoHello, dreadlordbone. Thanks so much for answering the question above. You saved me there. I am glad you looked at the site, and I hope you liked it. Let me know if you have any comments. Richard
- propboxsocials 3y agotailwindui and tailwindcss, vue 3, and bunch of js libraries :)
- montgomster 3y agoHi,tmountain. I am pretty sure the next reader answered your question. What he describes sounds correct. I will thank them in a minute.:) Thanks for your question, Richard
- montgomster 3y agotailwindui and tailwindcss, vue 3, and bunch of js libraries :)
- quickthrower2 3y agoNice. By the way I saw a 98 year old man who drove his wife to the doctor the other day. There are no age limits (assuming good health!)
- montgomster 3y agoHey,quickthrower2. A lot of my friends think I'm crazy. I certainly agree with you. Thanks for the compliment. Richard
- tagami 3y agoA nice looking site. How are you navigating the mandated broker licensing requirements, error and omissions, seller/buyer fraud...
- montgomster 3y agoExcellent Question, Tagami. First off the site has build in features that protect our customers, both buyer and seller from exposure to fraud and E@O. The customers work together because they both want the same thing - a successful transaction. They share the same information -transparency. Unlike the real estate industry that keeps them apart. All we do is introduce them and give them information that is generally available from public sources. we empower them to make their own decisions. 10% of the total market is the FSBO and we hope to capture a lot of them. This is simply an alternative choice to FSBO or a real estate company. I hope this helps. Thanks for the question. Richard
- stevespang 3y ago[dead]
- greenyoda 3y agoYou use the acronym FSBO on the web site (and here) without indicating that it means "For Sale By Owner". Spelling that out on the site might make it easier for the average person to understand.
- montgomster 3y agoYou are absolutely right. I get lazy or in a hurry sometimes but we can fix those. Thanks
- sabujp 3y agoWhy is the picture not centered on the top?
- montgomster 3y agoHi, sabujp. There was discussion about that but I do not recall why it ended up there. Just curious, is there a reason we should move it? I'd like to hear your thoughts. Only a designer would ask that question, right? Thanks for the question, I wish I could answer it for you. Richard
- sabujp 3y agoahh i see, it's only on a super wide browser window that it doesn't look correct : https://imgur.com/a/0NkPqiE https://imgur.com/a/0NkPqiE You may want to limit the absolute size of the top banner/image so it doesn't go past the width of the text area
- sethd 3y agoThe picture appears to be centered. The house appears to be centered in the picture, more or less. However, since there’s another house right very close to it on the right side and empty space on the left, I believe this creates a little bit of an illusion of the house not being centered. Personally, I think it looks fine. Side note: If I was buying a house that nice I’d want a bit more space between my neighbor. :)
- tomcam 3y agoLooks good. I’m interested in selling a high-end house. I can’t tell if it has MLS listings as part of the deal.
- montgomster 3y agoHi,tomcam. We have a few sales in a tiny test market. We don't use the MLS but we sold every house without mls. That is a long story, but we use state of the art SEO, and a unique yard sign. We are hopeful that as we grow more an more people will come to understand. If you want to talk, the platform has phone, text, and email built in. Or send me an email. Thanks so much for your interest. Richard
- jagged-chisel 3y agoBug: “Understanding the pros and cons of your options as a buyer or a seller if this circumstance arises is here. A LINK” There is no link
- montgomster 3y agoHi, jagged-chisel (love the handle) thank you for spotting it. Great find. Richard
- montgomster 3y agoWe will fix it right away.
- marc 3y agoLooks great. What type of feedback are you looking for? [1] Also curious what got you interested in building this specific product? Either way seems like a great start [1] https://marc.io/ask-for-feedback https://marc.io/ask-for-feedback
- montgomster 3y agoGreat question marckohlbrugge. I will read your link a bit later I seem to have a lot of questions which is blowing me away. I am looking for critical, helpful, honest reactions. You cannot offend me. I am nearing six decades in real estate with an unusual history. Initially I was a huge supporter, and it took me 25 years to begin to turn contrarian. I believe real estate has many problems and I have tried to fix them from the inside. I wrote a book, I answer consumer questions on my dearmonty.com website, I finally realized to have an impact I had to do something much larger. Thank you for your questions. I appreciate it. Richard
- rkagerer 3y agoIs that your home address in the ToS? If your company is in Wisconsin, how come it references the Department of Consumer Affairs in California? Governing Law section has some blanks not filled in. If you copy/pasted a template from somewhere else it might be worth having a lawyer do a quick review to make sure it meets your needs. Would also be nice if the hyperlinks on that page worked.
- propboxsocials 3y agoThat's required if you work in State of California. For our ToS we use Termly.
- montgomster 3y agoYes,that is my home address we all work remotely. The platform is currently operating in 13 states and California is one of them. Good find on the blanks No templates at least two lawyers have reviewed We are working on the links
- montgomster 3y agoThanks for your comments
- Pathogen-David 3y agoYou might consider looking into one of those UPS mailboxes or something similar. They have normal-looking addresses unlike PO boxes. As an aside, your terms pages both don't allow selecting text, which feels odd and is quite annoying. (I frequently select text as I'm reading it to help keep my place. It's also just annoying when pages block selecting text in the first place.) You also can't print either of them beyond the first page due to how the pages are structured. Apart from the legal pages, you filters on home type are currently too broad, IMO. (In particular multi-family homes should be a category -- I personally would be hard-pressed to consider a duplex as it's important to my that I don't share walls with people.) If you're modeling off of Zillow's tools, make sure to note that Zillow's filters change quite a bit when you indicate you're looking to buy rather than rent. (In rental view it doesn't disambiguate house vs duplex but in buy view it does.) In general the filters are lacking (lot size is another big one) but I imagine that can wait. A proper gallery view of all the images of the house that I can scroll through would be important to me. Clicking through images one by one is quite annoying. Rambling aside, best of luck with PropBox! Seems like a tough business to get going but I've always though something like this should exist.
- majjam 3y ago“If that time holds true as we grow the sellers savings are between $22,000 and $60,000 or event more depending on your home value.” Should be ‘even more’ I think :) nice site!
- propboxsocials 3y agothank you, we'll fix that!
- DeLopSpot 3y agoIt looks like the relevant state law is missing in the ToS: > These Legal Terms and your use of the Services are governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of ________ applicable to agreements made and to be entirely performed within the State of _______ without regard to its conflict of law principles. Also, not sure why you are loading your ToS in an iframe and making it non-selectable and non-copyable? Seems rather user-hostile.
- gunapologist99 3y agonot op, but most states have standardized forms that real estate agents are required to use. This is probably a place holder until those forms are ready, but given that the entire point is to make a legal transfer, that should probably be looked at :) another way to look at it might be that this is for the early adopters who are interested in splitting what would normally be 6% commission, like other 'for sale by owner' sorts of sites. (in other words, this isn't really re-treading new ground, which is probably a good thing... there are tons of other sites that focus on actually closing a sale with very little commissions involved.)
- montgomster 3y agogunapologist99, the forms are built into the product. They are simple forms to read and understand. I have answered thousands of consumer real estate questions and it is apparent by the questions they ask that many consumers are not reading the contracts. They turn to their trusted advisor and ask them if the doc is OK to sign. This is s very poor practice for consumers, brought on in part by the internet. The bulk of consumer do not read Amazon's ToS, or any other site. We don't think we can force people to read them, but if we make the purchase doc simple, and easy to read, they will read it. IMO, PropBox is breaking new ground. There is zero commission. Sellers are paying for an ad that makes the transaction easy by bringing the customers together instead of keeping them apart. A real estate transaction can be a win-win not a tug of war. Thanks for your review and your interest. Richard
- montgomster 3y agoHello,DeLopSpot. Many ToS docs push skirmishes into one state. We are thinking it is easier for the customers to argue in the state the property is located. This is under advisement. The blank line is simply an oversight. Out of curiousity I will ask IT about the non-selectable/non-copyable comment. I suspect it has to do with speed. I am not technical. Thanks for your observations. Richard
- jimmywatersabc 3y agoSuper cool. I really like how clear, clean, and concise the main landing page & pricing page are. Also, as a 36 year old developer, this product and you yourself, are inspirational. This sort of thing certainly lifts my spirits as I begin the job hunt after a sabbatical. Thought I'd mention as well-- I heard about this Japanese developer who made an iphone app at age 84 and even met Tim Cook. [1] [1] "Meet the 84-year-old Japanese app developer who inspired Tim Cook" November 23, 2019. Nikkei Asia. https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Meet-the-84-year-old-Japanese-app-developer-who-inspired-Tim-Cook2 https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Meet-the-84-year...
- montgomster 3y agoThank you for your comments on the platform. I appreciate it, and the small team that did the work will appreciate it even more. I disclosed upfront that my iPhone gives me trouble sometimes, but I'd be happy to meet Tim Cook as I have a small issue with it now. I am hoping that we are successful for many reasons, one of which is to inspire seniors not to quit working if they want to work. I have noticed there are many seniors with a lot to offer that seem to feel obligated to stop, or are badgered into retirement by family members or friends. Anecdotally, the famous broadcaster and writer, Paul Harvey was asked "When are you going to give it up." He was in his eighties and still showing up very early every day to work on his radio program, "The Rest of the Story." In that unmistakable voice, he proclaimed, "I'll tell you when I'm going to give it up. I'm going to give it up the moment I find something I like to do better.[1] [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Harvey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Harvey
- Multiplayer 3y agoA seller can post a listing on Zillow/trulia for free and get massive exposure. What is the advantage here? Is this somehow complementary to those marketing efforts?
- gunapologist99 3y agoPosting a listing of a home for sale is entirely different from actually selling the home. Ironically, most states have standardized real estate forms, so really it's just Realtors® that are clogging up the works and demanding 6% commissions. (Actually, it's just NAR; most realtor agencies get 3%, for working their half of the sale, and then the actual realtor only gets half of that, or 1.5%. All of the rest goes to the middlemen, because historically buying and selling homes was highly labor intensive.)
- montgomster 3y agoHello,gunapologist99. PropBox fixes that problem. Zero commissions,Really. PropBox is a tech advertising company where sellers buy an advertisement for a flat fee of $995 upfront + a home inspection and a professional photographer with a money back guarantee. Your observations are accurate, gunapologist99, you even got the Capital R and the ® correct. Thank you for your comments. Richard
- montgomster 3y agoGreat question, Multiplayer. There is a huge difference. I believe the largest difference is that the companies you mentioned client's are real estate agents. PropBox clients are the customer. We work for the buyer and the seller. But there are many more differences, those companies have no control over what the agents do with those leads. PropBox builds many features into the platform that is very helpful for both customers. PropBox takes all the pain points and friction out of the process. I believe our marketing is faster, transparent, simple, safer, and a lot cheaper. We are a new alternative the FSBO and the agent, and we are hoping a lot of people will try it, and if they do they will never go back. It is a good question, and I appreciate you for asking it. Richard
- dbg31415 3y agoFew minor accessibility issues. https://wave.webaim.org/report#/https://propbox.co/ https://wave.webaim.org/report#/https://propbox.co/ Bunch of front-end security issues. Some of these are trivial, but also... if you are going to do something, why not do it right? https://securityheaders.com/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fpropbox.co%2F&followRedirects=on https://securityheaders.com/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fpropbox.co%2F&f... The Privacy page is a nightmare, as others have pointed out. Why do this? Won't work with screen readers, won't let users copy text... it's bad. https://propbox.co/privacy https://propbox.co/privacy None of the social links in the footer work. Missing meta description and social medial share tile meta tags. https://socialsharepreview.com/?url=https://propbox.co/ https://socialsharepreview.com/?url=https://propbox.co/ https://propbox.co/robots.txt https://propbox.co/robots.txt gives 404 https://propbox.co/sitemap.xml https://propbox.co/sitemap.xml gives 404 Bunch of trivial stuff that sort of says, "My web dev is a little junior." But cool concept!
- propboxsocials 3y agoThank you for the feedback
- montgomster 3y agoHello, dbg31415. This is very good feedback and we work at eliminating and fixing, you are being helpful and all feedback is good. In my developer's defense, he quoted Paul Graham who said don't spend a lot of time trying to make it perfect, get the site out there. Who am I to argue with Paul Graham. Thanks for your feedback and we will work to fix it. Do you by chance know of a vendor that handles privacy and terms of service that you find acceptable? I would like to hear from you if you have the time. Thanks, again, dbg31415. Richard
- dbg31415 3y agoMy email is in my profile. Happy to send you some suggestions!
- dgrin91 3y agoInteresting site. Few notes: 1. Why did you choose to put the fees on the seller side? You say its 0 commission, but really its a flat fee commission on the seller. This is fine, just curious why not split? Makes it an unpleasant surprise for the seller. 2. It would be good if you be more upfront on where your service is active. Maybe during signup. I made an account just to find out you can't serve me. Double whammy 3. Its not really clear what sellers get from the platform besides flat fee commission Overall cool site. I'm always for innovation in real estate space. My experience home buying was super annoying.
- bruce511 3y ago>> but really its a flat fee commission on the seller No, it's nothing like a commission. It's a fee due whether the house sells or not. Basically FSBO sellers decide where,and how much, to spend their marketing dollars. Of course related-party transactions have no marketing costs at all, but the rest figure they can market themselves for less than the commission. This $1000 is really just an ad placement.
- montgomster 3y agoThanks for your questions they are good questions. Here are the answers: 1. We debated your question. There are several factors that influenced it but the major factor is the seller is paying $995 + a photographer and a home inspection so depending on where you live and the size of your home another $800 to $1500 say $2000. On a $500k home the seller saves $28,000! The other reason is the seller wants to make the home easy to buy. The low friction homes sell faster and for more money. We are hopeful buyers will recognize this and gravitate to PropBox. 2. good point. We can fix it. Were you in the process of signing up? send me an email and let me learn more - maybe we can add a state. no promise but I'd like to know more.3.The seller will have little stress, they are safer, they are far less likely to be litigated against, it is easy. Thanks for your comments and questions
- alberth 3y agoWhy not flat-free MLS listing? Not hating on this (and give huge props to actually releasing something), but why spend $995 when it costs only $100-500 for a flat-fee MLS listing? With a flat-fee MLS service you get the added benefit that all realtors will see your listing because it’s on the official MLS?
- propboxsocials 3y agoMain difference is that you pay flat fee $100-500 + you pay 2-3% commission to buyers agent. So let's say you're selling house for $500k and you go with Flat Fee MLS. You pay $100-500 and then you also pay $15k(3%) for buyers agent fees. With us you pay only flat fee $995, no commissions.
- lancewiggs 3y agoI invested and helped with something very similar to this in New Zealand. We found the model is difficult to make work for several reasons. Firstly for most people buying and selling a house it is the biggest transaction that they ever do, and they are simply not used to negotiating that large of a contract. They actually need a Real Estate agent to help drive the transaction to a close. So in our model we had a licensed agent as the founder and he spent considerable time negotiating deals to close, and sold a lot of homes. Secondly when it comes to selling your home you want to advertise it to the biggest market possible, which in our terms meant being on the major real estate platforms, one of which required you to be a licensed agent. Your buyers are not really incentivised to find your site and will use the big sites. Thirdly, and most importantly, the Real Estate game as you probably know is all about finding listings. That takes money and time, and $1000 per listing simply doesn’t make economic sense, well it didn’t for us. Our business failed, gracefully Suggestions (without reviewing the site): Sell packs of home sale supplies such as yard signs, advertisements on platforms where you get discounts or access. Try to get relationships with large sellers, in particular we found sellers of new apartment complexes /multifamily dwellings which were in demand were very keen on lowering their transaction fees. Consider offering a Real Estate agent service for very low cost will you conduct all of your business on the phone and not in person. That may meet the regulations and dramatically undercut the market. Consider a higher price, especially consider a transaction fee as that’s where sellers don’t mind paying. The Real Estate industry, and our part of the world and I suspect and yours, had a wide array of inefficient practices that were begging for automation. That’s where the real value has been created, though I would say the real money is of course in selling houses. Good luck with the endeavour.
- propboxsocials 3y agoThanks for sharing this, in 2020 in US there was about 500k real estate transactions done by FSBOs. We will try to get share of this market.
- kanwisher 3y agoWhat percentage of those were just unadvertised listings. For example I sold my condo to a tenant that was renting from me. Blindly ignoring his advice is why there have been a dozen startups fail in this category
- rubyn00bie 3y agoI was the CTO of a startup that tried this; it's extremely difficult because most people (it turns out) want a real estate agent or someone to help them. Additionally, it's a real chicken or egg situation-- without inventory, no one will use your app, and with no one using your app you won't get any inventory. There are two ways around that, one is to pay for data but then you'll have to deal with local MLS requirements. The second is copious amounts of money ($150-200 million) to burn for years in advertising to acquire eyeballs. Your app looks great, and I truly wish you the best of luck! I'd love to see someone succeed doing this...
- montgomster 3y agoWow, rubyn00bie, I'd love to talk with you. I wonder who you were with and how long ago. We anticipate that will be an issue for awhile, but we have a jar full of ideas how we will overcome that problem. Kind of the coke recipe. Thanks for your feed back and we will take all the luck we can get. Richard
- 6510 3y agoMy standard formula (tempted to call it a standard joke) is to build an aggregator that lists the competitors offers, in your case as many properties from as many agencies as possible. Some you have to pay for their data, some you can do for free, some want to pay for better listings. On a different note, without an agency one can leverage the lack of artificial urgency. ATM, with few listings, the longer listings last the better it is for you.
- rubyn00bie 3y agoIt's much easier and cheaper (in terms of time/money spent) just to use https://www.listhub.com/home.html https://www.listhub.com/home.html to aggregate the data. Many MLS are run on old beige boxes living in closets. I sort of disagree with the analysis about having things sit longer. One of the issues is that if it sits too long, because markets are hot, sellers will just go with an agent and never use your platform again. Additionally, many buyers will assume that the data is stale because its old. It's really a difficult situation with so many non-obvious layers of complexity in how it works.
- JadoJodo 3y agoThis looks great! Something I found: In the FAQ, under “Caution” there is an orphan “A LINK” text.
- mr-pink 3y agowhen i click "about us" you look pretty young for 77!
- smashed 3y agoLots of comments about how hard of a market it is to get going. Of course it is but just wanted to point out it is possible. Here in Quebec there is "du proprio" [1] which is pretty successful and are getting significant market share. Anyone I know looking to buy is looking at both MLS and duproprio listings. But I can tell it must be a very tough business. For one they have run continuous TV ads for years. The ads are targeting sellers only almost, and the main message is to save on realtor fees. So I'd suspect it's the listings that are the challenge, in a seller's market, the buyers will come. Their offers/pricing for sellers is very thorough. Yard signs of course, but also pro photographers sessions, 3d virtual visit thingy (check it out its neat), full legal services to complete the transaction... Their online listings and overall experience is much better than MLS/Realtor websites. In the end the platform was bought by PurpleBrick which is a slightly different business model I believe, and PurpleBrick was bought by a large credit union that might simply advertise mortgages? They never attempted to expand much outside of the quebec market afaik, but the platform looks like it's here to stay and going strong here. [1] https://duproprio.com/en/ https://duproprio.com/en/
- moneywoes 3y agoIs it just me or is Quebec an a anomaly? Appears they have all sorts of distinct rules
- whynotmaybe 3y agoKinda, in Québec, there are many more consumer oriented protections like the "legal warranty" that allows someone to request repair outside of the 1yr/2yr warranty usually provided by the manufacturer. The duration of the "legal warranty" is related to the price and the usual life expectancy of an appliance. (7 yrs for a std washing machine). It's also illegal to make a loan with too high interest rate (above 30%).
- schemescape 3y agoI’m fairly certain I saw a startup a few years ago with this exact idea, but I can’t find it after quite a bit of searching. No idea if they’re still around. They also supported transactions with one side having an agent, but in that case it wasn’t free. I don’t recall how they made money (or maybe they didn’t, and that’s why I can’t find them).
- m3kw9 3y agoMaybe focus launch in a single market first to iron out some bugs quickly
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y agoGood luck! Just FYI: There’s a style issue with the site on an iPad Mini. When viewing vertically, the About and Sign In buttons overlap.
- taylorhou 3y agoYour "how likely are you to recommend" prompt from helps out pops up on the first field of selling a home flow. Not relevant at all at that time.
- headline 3y ago"PropBox is a company of humans" in the about me is quite convincing that this company is, indeed, not a company of humans
- montgomster 3y agoInteresting comment. PropBox is a SaaS product and we expect the tech savvy folks will navigate it without ever speaking with us. But we are also committed to excellence with customer service, especially being brand new with a new experience. I'll will take your comment under advisement. Thank you sharing it.
- taylorhou 3y agoI listed my Denver townhouse in prime golden triangle location 2 blocks from all of the happening bars & clubs off Broadway. https://propbox.co/homes/100001/details https://propbox.co/homes/100001/details
- xyst 3y ago$925K to live in Denver? Times have changed
- montgomster 3y agoThe artificially low interest rates and low inventory created high prices in many parts of the country, and they seem to be holding in some areas. Times have changed. Thanks for commenting.
- propboxsocials 3y agowow, how was your experience?
- throwaway675309 3y agoWebsite seems clean although relatively bog standard. Dislike the not-so-subtle emotional play by stating your "advanced" age. Let the product stand on its own.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jamesgill 3y agoMain feedback: There’s no way I’m trusting an online third party to facilitate my home purchase/sale. Also: when doing FSBO, most of the work and difficulty is manually dealt with—negotiation back and forth verbally or on simple standardized legal documents. Then an escrow company takes over. Hard to see the benefit a third party in the middle who isn’t taking that off my hands (i.e., a human agent).
- 6510 3y agoA bunch of videos from people who used the service would put a face on it.
- montgomster 3y agoHi, jamesgill. We realize not everyone is going to agree early. We think consumers have been trained by the internet to expect things fast, easy, ans cheap. The is a lot of evidence that demonstrates the trend. PropBox will fill a need for many people early because it is fast, easy,and cheap. There is a customer on this thread that is waiting for a photographer before he posts, who will save $100k if the home sells for anywhere near what they believe it is worth. Time will tell, but we are working for a bright future. Thanks for sharing your beliefs. Richard
- propboxsocials 3y agoFolks, you can check out test house at this link https://propbox.co/homes/100000/details https://propbox.co/homes/100000/details You cand send offers,chat, negotiate etc.
- grahamplace 3y agoI came across this property on my own just by zooming out the map from my location — you might make a more clear example listing like “123 Test St” with lorem ipsum in the listing description I thought it was a mistake to leave this data in production, not an intentional example listing. Congrats on the launch! The site looks great
- pryelluw 3y agoDunno if reported already but this copy doesn’t seem right: ** Caution: Home buyers or sellers engaging a real estate agent may be subject to additional fees. Understanding the pros and cons of your options as a buyer or a seller if this circumstance arises is here. A LINK
- montgomster 3y agoHi. not sure exactly how to answer your question. May I ask what doesn't seem right?
- pryelluw 3y agoThe text towards the end. :) I saw another comment that addressed it. Apologies for the duplicate bug report.
- montgomster 3y agoNo apology necessary. I'm happy that you are commenting. When several people see the same problem it gets more attention. Thanks for commenting
- jimmar 3y agoI noticed the same thing. Is "A LINK" is supposed to be a link to another resource? It sounds like place holder text. "Understanding the pros and cons of your options as a buyer or a seller if this circumstance arises is here." Simplified, this sentence reads, "Understanding...is here." The sentence doesn't make sense.
- montgomster 3y agoAh, good find you two. I will try to get that fixed soon. Thank you
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y agoLooks like a letter is missing in the phrase "The title company will follow the contact instructions" in the "Frequently asked questions" section.
- montgomster 3y agoAh, I see it contract not contact. Thanks much.
- kfrzcode 3y agoI like it, from a quick hallway-test point of view; especially considering I'm your perfect customer right now, I saw the "$1" listing opportunity and immediately signed up to find out you don't service Minnesota. `WA, CA, AZ, CO, KS, TX, MO, IN, TN, KY, OH, FL, WI` You could make this more clear on the front page, of offer an Address/Zip based search, it's in my opinion a so-called "dark pattern" by requiring a login with email to do any basic searching like that.
- xyst 3y agoare listings on propbox syndicated to Zillow, Redfin, and other real estate apps/sites?
- montgomster 3y agoNo, they are not. We have not approached any other sites. Because we have zero commissions they would likely turn us away. Good question. I also believe we will do ok without them. Thanks for your question.
- stevefan1999 3y agoSo AirBnb for property selling?
- propboxsocials 3y agoexactly!
- richardw 3y agoGood example of a two-sided market, which are quite tricky but there’s a lot of material out there on strategies and techniques. I’d recommend focusing on one area/city at a time to get enough buyers and sellers. Nice work, very inspiring. I’m 50 and looking to start something again.
- montgomster 3y agoThanks for your comments and suggestion I'm happy you like it. Never give up.
- MagicMoonlight 3y agoPurplebricks
- gnfargbl 3y agoFor anyone not in the UK, Purplebricks was an online-only estate agent with a similar (but not identical) model to this platform. The market had high expectations for the company, but it didn't do particularly well and was sold for £1 recently: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/may/17/online-estate-agent-purplebricks-sold-charles-dunstone-strike https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/may/17/online-esta...
- ccamrobertson 3y agoI would love this for low cost land plots (sub $50k). I see a lot of people listing land like this on Facebook Marketplace; feels like this platform could be ideal for that.
- unusualmonkey 3y agoFor me, a startup is a business first, technology second. So my first question are always: 1) What does it cost to aquire a customer (CAC)? 2) How much does a customer pay (REVENUE)? 3) How many customers are there (TAM)? 4) How much does it cost to service a customer (GROSS MARGIN)? Let's answer these: 1) No information provided, but it's probably not cheap given there is plenty of competition. You can try to rely on word of mouth/focus on the FSBO niche... but this is a critical question to answer. (High CAC?) 2) This is easy, you charge $995/listing. Is this less or more than 1? No idea. (Low REVENUE!) 3) We can estimate this - you mention 500k FSBO happen each year. Let's say you're really successful, and capture 50k sales a year. (Low TAM!) That's a $50M/year revenue stream. As an induvidual that sounds large... but as a business that sounds pretty small - for context redfin spent $158M in marketing alone in 2022. 4) Cost to service customer... I imagine overtime and scale this could be reduced, but to what level? (Possibly okay GROSS MARGIN). As presented, and filling in the blanks, I think this is a currently a weak business model - high CAC, low Revenue and small TAM... this is going to make everything you do harder than it should be. ---- Notes on the website: The website doesn't really sell the value of using your service. The headline says 'Zero commissions'. This doesn't actually add any value to the seller. Your bullet points for 'sellers' are questionable: Set your home apart? Really? Who will see these listings? How will they know it's easy? Deal directly with buyers? This sounds like work. Why do I as a seller want more work? Close and Save? How does this help me close? What am I saving? ---- A different approach. Keep in mind I don't know your target customers, but here are some idea's: 1) Charge 10x as much - $9,995. Maybe on a success only model. This instantly 10x's your possible revenue and TAM... and focusses your time on early adopters who see value in your service, not cheapskates who are not going to do the work and leave bad feedback. Use the extra funds to market and hire! Alt: Keep cheap, but go deep into viral + addons. More complex, so not my preferred route. 2) Work on understanding the customer and figuring out thier pain points. Adjust marketing to fit: E.g. Save $X0,000 and be in control with PropBox! E.g. All the control of FSBO, but none of the paperwork! E.g. Sell your home faster, on your own terms, with PropBox. 3) Serve customers via concierge model until marketing/CAC is dialled in. Then focus on automation.
- moneywoes 3y agoPhenomenal analysis and suggestions. I’d love to learn what other metrics and decision frameworks you follow to build this type of intuition
- runako 3y agoGood luck with your launch! I would suggest a few things: - figure out some way to do some kind of quasi-official vetting of listings, perhaps as an add-on for sellers. Especially pay attention to pricing, because FSBOs tend to be wildly out of step with fair market value. You might consider refusing the official seal of approval if a property is listed at a price that doesn't reflect well on your platform (we've all seen a FSBO that's priced 50%+ over market; you don't want to endorse that). Platforms like AirBnB offer similar services - for example, they will even send a pro photographer out to take pictures and a top host to help with your copy. Having a way to distinguish listings where a professional has at least looked at the listing to ensure it is sane would be a big value for buyers. - Many people have pushed back on the notion that folks want to deal with a person. I tend to agree; our last realtor saved us a giant bill on water repairs by making some observations borne of experience. However, the flat percentage model doesn't make sense given how expensive many homes are today. I would suggest having a market of referrals to attorneys (and others?) who can help advise buyers through a transaction. This can allow folks to save a lot of money while feeling supported through the process. Really hope you're able to make a dent in the existing monopoly!
- gravypod 3y ago+1 Having a "network" of inspectors in each state which have a quality level of your choosing to pre-inspect every property would make me very happy. Also, criteria search for things which are not listed. Will allow you to find areas to target for searches. For example: I know for a fact I want to buy >5 acers of land in PA. If something came up at a good price I'd be on the market.
- montgomster 3y agohello, gravypod. In the bootstrapped MVP, we lack the capital and therefore manpower to intergrate a vetted home inspector, but we recognize the need and ifand when we get some scale, it will attract human resources and capital. Your thought is spot on. Thank you.
- montgomster 3y agoHello runako. Thank you for your thoughtful comments. If PropBox existed when you experienced your last transaction, I believe the concerns you had at that time would not have existed. The giant water repairs would have been exposed prior to the time you made the offer. PropBox recommends a per-sale home inspection, and requires the seller to complete a seller condition report. PropBox also provides all sellers with a range of value like other sites do today, but the seller shares that information upfront to the prospective buyer. PropBox is an advertising platform so there is no stopping a seller from getting help if they have a question the platform hasn't already answered. We are hopeful the seller will have a pre-sale home inspection, professional photography, and we require a seller condition report. Here is how I summarize what will happen and why: PropBox believes transparency builds trust. Trust between buyer and seller has been absent in real estate for over 100 years. Astute home buyers will recognize your advertisement's value and respond favorably to your efforts. You empower the buyer to decide to go ahead when you share information upfront that they would only see after they made an offer, if ever, in a typical transaction. They avoid the cost of a home inspection, and they learn the condition from an independent professional trained to find any flaws, as opposed to you accepting the liability. They review your condition report, which helps them understand what to expect. They can act with confidence because of your efforts. You benefit with a greater chance they will make an offer because they have seen the virtual presentation, know the condition, and communicate with the people who know the house and neighborhood best. You will likely receive a higher offer and enjoy a far lower risk of issues post-closing. You are leading the effort to make a real estate transaction fast, simple, inexpensive, and valuable to both parties.
- givemeethekeys 3y agoHey, great idea and I wish you lots of luck! Some thoughts: - I can direct list my home on Facebook, Craigslist, and Zillow. Why would I want to list it on your "exclusive" platform? Will you at least cross list for me on all the other services? - The supported regions need to be more prominent. I didn't find out that my home wasn't in an onboarded region until I tried to calculate the cost of selling a house - that's a bit too deep. If LA is all you support then say, "buy and sell homes in LA" - and make sure all your marketing and advertising spend is focused in conquering your initial target market. - "Commission free" does not mean it's cost-free. The cost calculator needs to be simplified. If it is simplified enough, it needs to be more prominent as well - after all, you're asking the home owner to do all the hard work, and pay you up-front. So, why not sell me on how much I'd save by putting in the elbow grease? Sell me on how realtors make way too much money for not a lot of work. Sell me on how the platform will guide me each step of the way - it'll be as easy as following a cookie baking recipe or something.
- montgomster 3y agoHello, givemeethekeys. You are right on. We received many similar comments and you will start seeing big improvements in the message in the coming weeks. What would you think of a calculator that tells you what you should price your at to have it sold in ___ days? Check us out in six months and see how we're doing. Thanks for chiming in. Richard
- montgomster 3y agoHello, Givemethekeys. Just wanted to let you know we are in the process of opening the 37 states we left out. If you haven't sold your home, we should be ready for in a week. Check in then. You can reach me at rm@propBox.co Thanks
- andrewstuart 3y agoIt is not a good idea to ask for my location then set your database to that location. Mainly because there's a very low chance this will show any houses for sale, and this makes it look like your service is unused. You've got the normal big challenge of creating a two sided marketplace - search for that term and you'll find any number of posts and podcasts talking about that. That is going to be hard to overcome. I think that sites should take you directly in to the data - don't force people to read some generic page of benefits - show don't tell. Put all that guff on an "about" page. If you are going to make your age a selling point, then drop visitors straight into the data browsing page, make sure there are some houses there - and put a picture of you up top and say hello and point out you are 77 years old and you wrote this. It's something unique, so why not? Also you should fill your database with houses - use AI or some sort of random data generator to generate them and just make sure there's a small but clear note on the listing saying this is AI data. It's not ideal but it is better than an empty database. Give people something to look at. Great work though. What is it built with? Who wrote it? You?
- __ryan__ 3y agoAlso you should fill your database with houses - use AI or some sort of random data generator to generate them and just make sure there's a small but clear note on the listing saying this is AI data. It's not ideal but it is better than an empty database. Give people something to look at. This genuinely made my stomach turn. If this is the future… I don’t know if I want in.
- sverhagen 3y agoIsn't this the PAST... something along the lines of: "spent some time to fill the database with data; any data; make it up if you have to". This would've worked long before AI, except now just a bit more efficient?
- erhaetherth 3y agoIt wasn't cool then either.
- deserialized 3y agoVery clean design, best of luck!
- fakedang 3y agoAmazing that you built this at your age. And it honestly looks good. I do have concerns about the sustainability of the business model though, because I'm not sure how much sellers (who are mostly agents) would be willing to spend for this on a per-listing basis. The only disappointment I had when using the website was seeing a spacious home listed in the heart of LA for $900k, only to find that it was a test listing.
- estreeper 3y agoGreat work and great concept - I found the copy to be clear and communicated the value proposition effectively, and I would certainly consider using this when selling my house since I could potentially get 10s of thousands of dollars more. I will also check back to see if there are different listings here than on Zillow, but will probably forget if you don’t send me a reminder. One small UX bug: on mobile the hamburger menu obscures the Sign Up form, and I missed that I needed to click the X - closing the menu when I click an item would solve this. Other than that, it was pretty easy to use! The idea of being able to get information directly from the person living in the house is appealing to me. I understand the up front fee to sell, but wish I could de-risk by being able to get it refunded if I don’t sell. Very interesting, I hope to keep an eye on your company!
- ris58h 3y agoI really don't like clickbait titles like this. Is yours startup's killer feature your age? Why not describe what your service does in the title?
- yuvalkarmi 3y agoI respectfully disagree with the latter part (as for the former, you’re obviously free to like or dislike anything :)). I think we should each play to our strengths - and this is especially true in marketing. If this is what ends up grabbing someone’s eye where they would have otherwise ignored it, then good for the author. It’s unusual to launch a startup at that age, and therefore (in my view) interesting and merits discussion.
- yaseer 3y agoAgreed, if anything, I actually would have liked to hear a little more about the author, given the title. A lot of startups have founder backstories weaved into their pitch. 'Who are you, and why are you doing this?' can be an interesting story to tell.
- cutemonster 3y agoI think it was interesting too. I'm going to mention to my parents and a neighbor who is 78 (and btw goes out skiing once or twice a week and races with the younger people). And nice to see that apparently I'll be able to work into my eighties, no problems
- montgomster 3y agoHello, cutemonster. Yup. You can when you enjoy what you do it is not work. Go for it. Richard
- montgomster 3y agoHello, yaseer. Thanks for your comments. Actually,here is my linkedIn profile.[1] I have had a wonderful life to date. Like everyone else, wonderful achievements and devastating disappointments. Life comes at us hard sometimes. For me I have always believed I did the best I could with the information I had available. So when something bad happens, its never the end of the world, so it isn't the event that is important, it is how you respond to the event that is important. I'm happy to wake up in the morning and realize that I am just a small grain of sand on a very big beach.Thanks for asking. [1]https://www.linkedin.com/in/dearmontydotcom/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/dearmontydotcom/
- mavili 3y ago"... sellers savings are between $22,000 and $60,000" This must be talking about multi-million dollar properties? 60k is a deposit for most home purchases! And if you're talking about million+ dollar homes then don't waste your time, those people won't just sign up to a site and put their properties up themselves. Just by giving it to the right estate agent will give them tens of thousands over a price that you could potentially get from individuals browsing a site for buying. Sorry but this a waste of time.
- blairbeckwith 3y agoI’ll look past the rudeness of your comment and actually address your point. At least in Canada - I would assume the model is similar in the US - standard real estate transaction commissions using an agent are 4-5%, so your home wouldn’t need to be over a million to save $20k by avoiding an agent. Also, in many metros, the prices of homes are so high that a million dollar home ain’t what it used to be. We can’t and shouldn’t assume that someone selling a million dollar house is a sophisticated and wealthy actor.
- mavili 3y agoSorry if my comment sounded rude. Harsh, yes, but didn't think it was rude. Of course you will get lots of negative feedback, especially when you put something in front of thousands of strangers. It looks like you're handling that alright but just to give you a bit of comfort that's very expected. Agent fees in the UK are typically 1.5-2% - so even for a property of 500k, 2% is 10k. And average property prices are well below 500k.
- cj 3y ago6% is typical in the US (3% for seller's agent, another 3% for buyers agent). 6% of $500k is $30k. $419k is the median sale price in the US according to Redfin. It's possible to negotiate the percent down, but typically that is only common on particularly expensive listings (not super common below 7-figures). I purchased a house in New York last year. I found it on Zillow and showed up and bought it without an agent. They still charged the seller 6% (the seller agent got double the commission because I didn't have an agent, and they made themselves my agent of record for the purpose of the transaction - interestingly this is legal in NY, but not legal in all states). And because the seller agent knew they were getting double commission if they sold to me, they did a good job fending away other potential buyers (which I'm not complaining about as a buyer, but would be pissed about if I were the seller). There are lots of reasons to ditch real estate agents. They charge way too much relative to the value they bring most transactions.
- Anon4Now 3y agoYou might want to have someone proofread your site. Maybe hire a professional copywriter. > Unlike FSBO websites with flat fee listings, no MSL listing or co-broke fees exist. That's not a sentence, and the rest of that paragraph is pretty bad as well. > About us > PropBox is a company of humans with shared beliefs ... That sounds great if your target market is Marianne Williamson, but I think most people would look at the About page to find out more about the owner(s) of your company and their experience in the real estate market. A home is the single biggest asset that most people own. Are they going to trust the sales process to a nameless, faceless URL with no discernible address or contact information?
- lagniappe 3y ago> Unlike FSBO websites with flat fee listings, no MSL listing or co-broke fees exist. what's wrong with that sentence? subject is "fees", verb is "exist".
- Anon4Now 3y agoYou're right! I had the worst time parsing that sentence. I read it as a series that lacked an Oxford comma.
- montgomster 3y agoYes, please check out the two posts above. We take every comment seriously. I am overwhelmed with the help the Hacker News community is providing us. We deeply appreciate it. Thank you.
- montgomster 3y agoI agree with you. I answered a similar comment directly above yours. Paul Graham says don't try to make the site perfect, get it out the door as fast as you can. Hopefully it will begin to scale and we will hire a designer to help. Thank you for weighing in I (we) are listening, and responding candidly. We will behave the same way with our customers. This is good practice. ;)
- dmitkov28 3y agoTruly inspirational. Best of luck!
- dorianmariefr 3y agoLooked really cool but the search in the map for buying homes doesn't work
- _yb2s 3y agoThis is a cool service, and I would certainly use it as a buyer, but to get me as a seller it would need to have an option to get an MLS listing as well. Is there any reason that wouldn't be possible eventually as a feature? It's just that the majority of potential buyers will be looking for homes through MLS, so you are drastically reducing the pool of potential buyers. Number of interested buyers is going to be a huge factor in selling price, especially if you get a bidding war going.
- montgomster 3y agoHello, UniverseHacker. Good question. MLS is part of the problem. It could be more efficient; anybody with a license can join, and one of only two choices currently available to consumers. The other is going for sale-by-owner. PropBox is a brand-new advertising alternative that removes all the pain points. It is fast, accurate, simple to use, and inexpensive. For example, I write a syndicated weekly Q&A real estate column. I have answered thousands of consumers' most pressing questions over 12 years. One of my learning experiences is that when I get a new question, it is easy to discern that many people don't read the contracts. Why? Because the contracts are so long and difficult to understand, customers turn to their trusted advisor and ask, " Well, <name of agent>, what do you think? Should we go ahead?" The majority of agents will reassure them to proceed. So they ask a person with a significant conflict for permission. This is a big mistake. At PropBox, we are trying to correct this by making the form simple and easy to read. For example, the basic offer-to-purchase has over ten thousand words in my home state. The PropBox basic offer-to-purchase has just over one thousand words, written in easy-to-understand language that meets all the legal requirements in the state. Our legal counsel has agreed that it is legal. Now a customer can read it and understand it. This short and easy read will improve a buyer's confidence and avoid depending on someone else's opinion. It also minimizes the chance of a future misunderstanding for the seller. Our customers will recognize and appreciate this simple fix.
- ape4 3y agoI guess this is for the US, but I can't tell, why not put that in About.
- hacym 3y agoMy two cents: The copy doesn’t sound professional. I’d hire someone to assist with that immediately
- p3rls 3y agoI'm 36 and have been building websites as a hobby all my life and this looks better than my stuff :S
- btbuildem 3y agoCheck out Duproprio (in Quebec, Canada) - similar use case
- montgomster 3y agoHello, Hacker news readers: This is Richard Montgomery that started this thread. I am overwhelmed with the response. We were expecting it would be a couple of weeks before we would have many responses. I want to answer every question, and I will, but it may take a day or two or three. We have the sign order in, but we are waiting to receive it. we expect it shortly. The help and suggestions I am receiving is fantastic. I appreciate your patience. Thank you all, and please continue if you will with feedback. Thank you
- drumhead 3y agoIts great to hear of someone of your age starting an online business like this. Its a real inspiration to a lot of us older people here to keep believing that that we can do this as well, or that we're not barred from participating in the online world just because of our age.
- montgomster 3y agoKeep on truckin'drumhead. When you are doing something you love, it is not work. It's a hobby. ;) Thanks for your comment. Richard
- tomcam 3y agoAm in the middle of listing my house using propbox.co because I happen to be the ideal use case: high end house in a pretty good market that should almost sell itself. When I say "in the middle" I haven't taken pictures of the property so the listing hasn't been completed and may not until weather here in Seattle approves. Another thing that makes this option tailor-made to me is that I'm friends with the real estate agent who sold it to me years ago and I don't necessarily want it to appear in the MLS yet, where she'd instantly know. The site's UI is pretty smooth, with some very minor bugs (at the moment you can't add blank lines to the house description textbox). For an MVP it's very very clean and a pleasure to use. There's an unobtrusive "Seller tips" box that has a fantastic checklist for prepping the house. I mean, I knew to replace the tile counter with marble but I never thought about replacing the doors' weather stripping. In the too-good-to-be-true dept: chatted with the founder and this appears to be a legit deal. Certainly they haven't charged any money, and he obviously knows the applicable laws: he's been in every possible position from developer to broker and everything else. In lieu of a big market spend he's just going to lose money on every sale early on. It really does cost only a buck to sell, and they do plan to send a distinct for sale sign. I suggested he make images of that sign prominent b/c the site is a little generic and that will set them apart.
- montgomster 3y agoThank you for your comments, Tom. There are many high value homes in Seattle. If a home sells for $1m the savings are $60k less about $2000.00 for the ad plus a home inspection and a Photographer. If a home sells for $2m that is $120k! We believe there will be many people with high end homes that will try PropBox. If they are not computer literate, they can pay their kids, neighbor, co-worker or a close friend to place the ad, install the yard sign, hold an open house, show the house, etc. If the ten to twelve hours of "Work" holds as we add more homes, a million dollar homeowner would earn almost $5000.00 per hour. I am not aware of any part-time jobs that have that pay rate.
- Dowwie 3y agoHow are you navigating regulations? Are you vetting listings? Is there a legal expert in your team?
- rjnetra 3y agoI can't provide much more context than anyone has currently, but I just wanted to say I love what you're doing with the "zero commission" approach. I think it's sorely needed in alot of markets. Wish you the best luck.