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Reminds me that I've yet to see Chris Morris' 2019 film The Day Shall Come which satirizes the FBI's pathological shoehorning of hapless individuals into a para

Reminds me that I've yet to see Chris Morris' 2019 film The Day Shall Come which satirizes the FBI's pathological shoehorning of hapless individuals into a paranoid narrative of terrorist cells plotting violence against the state, based on many instances (the number 100 is mentioned) researched by Morris. Morris writes[1]: > The US Attorney General is announcing the sensational arrest of an army based in Miami, about to launch a full ground war on America. The FBI had saved the Nation [...] > Two years later in Washington DC I met a witness from the resulting trial and discovered this terrifying coup would have been pulled off by seven construction workers riding into Chicago on horses. The idea was a fantasy, spun to make money. They had no guns – and no horses. An FBI informant had offered them $50,000 to attack America [...] > The government presented it as an Al Qaeda plot bigger than 9/11. These guys weren’t even Muslims, they were Haitian Catholics. It took three trials to find them guilty. They were all jailed as terrorists. > “I discovered this was not a freakish one off. Since 9/11 it has become Standard Operating Procedure. Informants encourage a Person of Interest to break the law and when they do, the FBI arrest them. Each plan is put together with the federal attorney. Arrest is delayed until the case will play in court. So the conviction rate is 98 per cent. The typical sentence is 25 years. 1: https://lwlies.com/articles/the-day-shall-come-trailer-chris-morris-anna-kendrick/ https://lwlies.com/articles/the-day-shall-come-trailer-chris...

goeiedaggoeie 3y ago
this reminds me somewhat of the plot of the Umberto Eco novel "Foucault's pendulum". A fantastic read.
dmix 3y ago
How does this stuff get past a prosecutors office? I get law enforcement being idiots but there's whole teams of lawyers putting these cases together too. Are they really that desperate for work?
- rdtsc 3y ago
  They are playing on the same team. The definition of entrapment is narrow enough and they both know it very well so they can dance around it just enough to pad each others stats: "Look how many terrorists Joe discovered, give him a promotion!" and "Look how many terrorists Jenny has successfully prosecuted. She should be running the department!".
  - reaperman 3y ago
    I agree it’s not “entrapment”. But there’s another concept at play here that I don’t have a good name for which still makes these things mostly bullshit. There’s definitely a theme but there may be a couple different categories here. In the majority of cases it’s clear nothing would have happened without the enticement from undercover law enforcement. Some but not all/most cases are like the one posted, where it’s clear that the person prosecuted needed health services to prevent a possible attack, not prosecution.
    - lamontcg 3y ago
      It may not fit the legal definition of "entrapment" but it definitely fits the common-sense definition of "entrapment".
    - marcus0x62 3y ago
      > I agree it’s not “entrapment”. But there’s another concept at play here that I don’t have a good name for which still makes these things mostly bullshit. I have one: solicitation to commit a felony. I think we’d be a little better off if the congress made it clear via statute that this sort of conduct falls under the existing solicitation statutes. We’d be a lot better off if there was a permanent special prosecutor charged with identifying and prosecuting these crimes.
      - Red_Leaves_Flyy 3y ago
        Any prosecutor prosecuting corrupt cops is going to lead a short and lonely life. Law enforcement needs to be forcibly rebuilt by civilian led institutions embedded into their communities in partnership with the plethora of organizations offering a cornucopia of types of support. Cops first priority after safety should be diversion to community resources for support and integration. Trying to maintain the classist shithole that is America will continue to see bullshit like this and doomed to fail policies.
        dmix 3y ago
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  Prosecutors are not necessarily paragons of integrity. Defendants in these cases often can't afford good legal representation, and depending on the location, it can be very easy to find a jury willing to hand down a life sentence to someone on the thinnest of evidence. Don't underestimate the role of plain old sadism in the criminal justice system.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  Usually because it’s political. See the recent case where they egged on some disgruntled idiots with the Whitmer kidnapping case. Its taking a very long time to hold the FBI accountable because its not politically expedient but even left leaning publications are starting to acknowledge it. https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/19/michigan-governor-kidnap-case-terrorists-fbi-dupes-gretchen-whitmer https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/19/michigan-gov...
- newsclues 3y ago
  Are they really that desperate for WINS? Yes. Your record in winning cases influences your career.
- hgsgm 3y ago
  They'd have to be either greedy or racist. What are the odds?
  - dmix 3y ago
    The odds are that's a pithy convenient dichotomy. The (more nuanced) reality is what concerns me. Maybe I have a rose coloured view of their jobs but these well educated lawyers should know better and push back. They don't have the excuse of being beat cops who decided to get a college degree and apply for the FBI at 23, or whatever typical trajectory these guys take, before recruiting agents to push belligerent-tier forced arrests.
- raincom 3y ago
  Terrorism cases help prosecutors' careers. Prosecutors and agents collude 24x7. This collusion is legally sanctioned.
  - madaxe_again 3y ago
    Don’t forget the kickbacks from prison corporations for providing livestock. These guys were dumb and pissed off the wrong people and were made examples of. Most never are. https://www.npr.org/2022/08/18/1118108084/michael-conahan-mark-ciavarella-kids-for-cash https://www.npr.org/2022/08/18/1118108084/michael-conahan-ma...
mc32 3y ago
I mean, how close do you have to get to be _the_ _lead_ conspirator? It's one thing to infiltrate a group and then use that information to decide to tail them or arrest them or whatever. But I think there is a line somewhere where this kind of encouragement should anull/vacate a conviction. It's not too far from handing a loaded weapon to a toddler and then being surprised they sometimes go and fire the weapon. I'm almost willing to have this practice abolished just because the system can't police itself to do the right thing.
- hgsgm 3y ago
  Almost willing? It's a perversion of the ideals this country is supposed to stand for. The FBI should be in prison. It was originally founded by Hoover as a US version of Stasi (that predates it!) to persecute people who challenge government corruption.
nonethewiser 3y ago
We’d be foolish to assume they stopped all of a sudden. The people involved are total idiots and even crazy, but the FBI are to blame as well in the Whitmer kidnapping plot. As more comes to light, it seems they created the plot and egged the participants on. They werent just implanted to see what’s going on. https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/19/michigan-governor-kidnap-case-terrorists-fbi-dupes-gretchen-whitmer https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/19/michigan-gov...
- notavalleyman 3y ago
  The article which you linked, says the arrested people are accused of conducted scouting trips of the governor's house. The furthest that the guardian went, was saying their claims of an FBI setup were "not entirely outlandish". But then you introduced the story here as if the FBI "created the plot". That's not what your link said
  - kneebonian 3y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_plot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_... Of the 13 people involved the FBI has admitted to 5 of them being directly or indirectly working on behalf of the FBI including the group leader. There is significant evidence pointing to the fact that if the FBI had not been involved the plot would've never happened.
    - notavalleyman 3y ago
      >There is significant evidence pointing to the fact that if the FBI had At the risk of true scotmanning, no, I didn't come away from either the guardian nor wiki links thinking the evidence was "significant". Actually I didn't see any evidence in either link, that without the FBI, no attack would have happened. What evidence do you think could lead you to conclude, that no attack would happen if not for the FBI?
      - kneebonian 3y ago
ahahahahah 3y ago
awwww god!! if it weren't for the fbi posing as a 11-year old girl, i would've never shown up to have sex with a minor.

goeiedaggoeie 3y ago

this reminds me somewhat of the plot of the Umberto Eco novel "Foucault's pendulum". A fantastic read.

dmix 3y ago

How does this stuff get past a prosecutors office? I get law enforcement being idiots but there's whole teams of lawyers putting these cases together too. Are they really that desperate for work?

rdtsc 3y ago
They are playing on the same team. The definition of entrapment is narrow enough and they both know it very well so they can dance around it just enough to pad each others stats: "Look how many terrorists Joe discovered, give him a promotion!" and "Look how many terrorists Jenny has successfully prosecuted. She should be running the department!".
- reaperman 3y ago
  I agree it’s not “entrapment”. But there’s another concept at play here that I don’t have a good name for which still makes these things mostly bullshit. There’s definitely a theme but there may be a couple different categories here. In the majority of cases it’s clear nothing would have happened without the enticement from undercover law enforcement. Some but not all/most cases are like the one posted, where it’s clear that the person prosecuted needed health services to prevent a possible attack, not prosecution.
  - lamontcg 3y ago
    It may not fit the legal definition of "entrapment" but it definitely fits the common-sense definition of "entrapment".
  - marcus0x62 3y ago
    > I agree it’s not “entrapment”. But there’s another concept at play here that I don’t have a good name for which still makes these things mostly bullshit. I have one: solicitation to commit a felony. I think we’d be a little better off if the congress made it clear via statute that this sort of conduct falls under the existing solicitation statutes. We’d be a lot better off if there was a permanent special prosecutor charged with identifying and prosecuting these crimes.
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 3y ago
      Any prosecutor prosecuting corrupt cops is going to lead a short and lonely life. Law enforcement needs to be forcibly rebuilt by civilian led institutions embedded into their communities in partnership with the plethora of organizations offering a cornucopia of types of support. Cops first priority after safety should be diversion to community resources for support and integration. Trying to maintain the classist shithole that is America will continue to see bullshit like this and doomed to fail policies.
      - dmix 3y ago
anigbrowl 3y ago
Prosecutors are not necessarily paragons of integrity. Defendants in these cases often can't afford good legal representation, and depending on the location, it can be very easy to find a jury willing to hand down a life sentence to someone on the thinnest of evidence. Don't underestimate the role of plain old sadism in the criminal justice system.
nonethewiser 3y ago
Usually because it’s political. See the recent case where they egged on some disgruntled idiots with the Whitmer kidnapping case. Its taking a very long time to hold the FBI accountable because its not politically expedient but even left leaning publications are starting to acknowledge it. https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/19/michigan-governor-kidnap-case-terrorists-fbi-dupes-gretchen-whitmer https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/19/michigan-gov...
newsclues 3y ago
Are they really that desperate for WINS? Yes. Your record in winning cases influences your career.
hgsgm 3y ago
They'd have to be either greedy or racist. What are the odds?
- dmix 3y ago
  The odds are that's a pithy convenient dichotomy. The (more nuanced) reality is what concerns me. Maybe I have a rose coloured view of their jobs but these well educated lawyers should know better and push back. They don't have the excuse of being beat cops who decided to get a college degree and apply for the FBI at 23, or whatever typical trajectory these guys take, before recruiting agents to push belligerent-tier forced arrests.
raincom 3y ago
Terrorism cases help prosecutors' careers. Prosecutors and agents collude 24x7. This collusion is legally sanctioned.
- madaxe_again 3y ago
  Don’t forget the kickbacks from prison corporations for providing livestock. These guys were dumb and pissed off the wrong people and were made examples of. Most never are. https://www.npr.org/2022/08/18/1118108084/michael-conahan-mark-ciavarella-kids-for-cash https://www.npr.org/2022/08/18/1118108084/michael-conahan-ma...

mc32 3y ago

I mean, how close do you have to get to be _the_ _lead_ conspirator? It's one thing to infiltrate a group and then use that information to decide to tail them or arrest them or whatever. But I think there is a line somewhere where this kind of encouragement should anull/vacate a conviction. It's not too far from handing a loaded weapon to a toddler and then being surprised they sometimes go and fire the weapon. I'm almost willing to have this practice abolished just because the system can't police itself to do the right thing.

hgsgm 3y ago
Almost willing? It's a perversion of the ideals this country is supposed to stand for. The FBI should be in prison. It was originally founded by Hoover as a US version of Stasi (that predates it!) to persecute people who challenge government corruption.

nonethewiser 3y ago

We’d be foolish to assume they stopped all of a sudden. The people involved are total idiots and even crazy, but the FBI are to blame as well in the Whitmer kidnapping plot. As more comes to light, it seems they created the plot and egged the participants on. They werent just implanted to see what’s going on. https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/19/michigan-governor-kidnap-case-terrorists-fbi-dupes-gretchen-whitmer https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/19/michigan-gov...

notavalleyman 3y ago
The article which you linked, says the arrested people are accused of conducted scouting trips of the governor's house. The furthest that the guardian went, was saying their claims of an FBI setup were "not entirely outlandish". But then you introduced the story here as if the FBI "created the plot". That's not what your link said
- kneebonian 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_plot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_... Of the 13 people involved the FBI has admitted to 5 of them being directly or indirectly working on behalf of the FBI including the group leader. There is significant evidence pointing to the fact that if the FBI had not been involved the plot would've never happened.
  - notavalleyman 3y ago
    >There is significant evidence pointing to the fact that if the FBI had At the risk of true scotmanning, no, I didn't come away from either the guardian nor wiki links thinking the evidence was "significant". Actually I didn't see any evidence in either link, that without the FBI, no attack would have happened. What evidence do you think could lead you to conclude, that no attack would happen if not for the FBI?
    - kneebonian 3y ago

ahahahahah 3y ago

awwww god!! if it weren't for the fbi posing as a 11-year old girl, i would've never shown up to have sex with a minor.