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When Chelsea Manning was arrested, Daniel Ellsberg would remind everyone that the stuff he leaked had a higher classification than whatever Manning leaked. The

When Chelsea Manning was arrested, Daniel Ellsberg would remind everyone that the stuff he leaked had a higher classification than whatever Manning leaked. The Most Dangerous Man in America: Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers is a great documentary about him. Fun fact: Mike Gravel was an Alaskan senator. When he heard Daniel had the papers, he convinced Daniel to send them to him. Then Gravel went on a filibuster to prevent funding of the Vietnam war, and he chose to read the Pentagon papers aloud in the filibuster. By doing so, he ensured that they would legally be accessible to the public, because they were now part of the congressional record.

anigbrowl 3y ago
This sort of political courage is sorely lacking nowadays. Instead we get ersatz versions of it, where lawmakers claim ignorance of or incompetence to assess facts already in the public sphere, while damning their political opponents on the basis of documents whose existence is merely rumored by unspecified individuals whose whereabouts have been unknown for years.
- mbg721 3y ago
  And journalists who cheer "Yeah, we hate Nixon too!" but don't truly hold anyone to account for the truth.
- D_Alex 3y ago
  Recently Chomsky talked about Ellsberg in response to a question "Who has been the single greatest public figure of your lifetime?" https://youtu.be/TQ-Crh3rdQA?t=1946 https://youtu.be/TQ-Crh3rdQA?t=1946 (BTW - the whole interview is well worth watching).
  - 95014_refugee 3y ago
    In what sense? Chomsky is generally not worth listening to for a variety of reasons (dishonesty, denialism, whataboutism, tankism, etc.)
    - mistermann 3y ago
      Meme Magic (FTW?)
- busterarm 3y ago
  The Obama Administration absolutely persecuted the shit out of any and all whistleblowers and journalism sources. His use of the Espionage Act was absolutely unprecedented. If you think people lack courage, you don't have to look far as to why.
  - nameistaken 3y ago
    How do I downvote comments?
    - raphman 3y ago
      You click on the downvote arrow. However, you need to have sufficient karma for the downvote arrow to appear. You do not appear to have passed this threshold yet. Also, if this was not a honest question but just a rethorical one: please read and take to heart the HN guidelines [1]. Essential part: It is better to explain why you disagree with the parent poster than to post snarky comments that do not contribute to the discussion. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - heybrendan 3y ago
    I'd like to learn more. Sources I can refer to?
    - vonwoodson 3y ago
      Binging “obama whistleblower crackdown” returns some pretty conservative leaning and conspiracy looking websites.
      - bigger_inside 3y ago
        it's really interesting where this comes from, and why this seems to some such an easy "gotcha". first off, that these come up doesn't mean they're wrong, though it does likely mean they're shallow. more deeply, this is an old, well-known dynamic often decried by the left. the left will dig deeper into often pretty obvious social dysfunctions and pioneer a social critique, analyzing the political and economic structures and systems that underpin it, and turn it into a challenge to existing authorities. This challenge is complicated, it hinges on teaching you political economy first, before it can even start to tell you what the systemic problem actually is. but it touches on real problems people feel every day. The conservatives make a media thing out of it. Now, mass media, forever, has made their money by selling your prejudices back to you; from entertainment to news, they all basically work this way. Conservatives work this way as well (making for that sweet synergy between the two): it takes a run-down, stripped-down, dumbed-down version of the criticism, strips all political economy analysis from it (can't have them blame capitalism!), frinds some easy scarecrow figures - Gates, Soros, whoever (not that they're not horrible people, but that's not the point really), ascribes "debauchery and corruption" to them (because then the SYSTEM is fine). In the end, when people then google the problems, they find these easy stories, which makes them associate the identification of the problem with these dumbed-down assaults. Then even mentioning the problem becomes that.
brandonmenc 3y ago
The major difference is that Ellsberg was a civilian.
- toyg 3y ago
  So what you're saying is that anyone in the military loses their human rights.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Code_of_Military_Justice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Code_of_Military_Justi... > The UCMJ was established by the United States Congress in accordance with their constitutional authority, per Article I, Section 8, which provides that "The Congress shall have Power . . . to make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval forces" of the United States.
  - zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
    That's like saying people who sign NDAs lose their human rights.
  - verall 3y ago
    Like, literally You can be ordered to take chemicals or medications which have not been FDA approved, and you can be put in jail for refusing. You can under certain circumstances be compelled to testify against yourself (5th amendment waived).
    - mattparcens 3y ago
      Without bound?
    - cfeduke 3y ago
      > You can be ordered to take chemicals or medications which have not been FDA approved, and you can be put in jail for refusing. It's sort of like that and not at the same time. Under the UCMJ, refusing a lawful order can put you in the brig, or a variety of punishments applied (NJP, loss of rank, loss of pay, etc.). Under most circumstances, forcing a service member to ingest an unknown drug is not a lawful order. Under official civilian authority you can be highly encouraged to take an untested vaccine or some such, and refusal, while not disobeying a lawful order, can end up with you receiving unpleasant treatment. (You are there under contract for a set period of time, after all, so a long period of time of unpleasant treatment can be motivation enough to do things you wouldn't normally want to do.) I was able to avoid the anthrax vaccine around 2000 by refusing to sign a waiver. I ended up getting transferred to a new command shortly thereafter which was scheduled long before this anthrax vaccine situation, but I can't be certain that there were going to be any repercussions regardless of my decision because most of my fellow service members at that time were unwilling to be test subjects as well.
Rediscover 3y ago
A major reason why the Viet Nam war died.

anigbrowl 3y ago

This sort of political courage is sorely lacking nowadays. Instead we get ersatz versions of it, where lawmakers claim ignorance of or incompetence to assess facts already in the public sphere, while damning their political opponents on the basis of documents whose existence is merely rumored by unspecified individuals whose whereabouts have been unknown for years.

mbg721 3y ago
And journalists who cheer "Yeah, we hate Nixon too!" but don't truly hold anyone to account for the truth.
D_Alex 3y ago
Recently Chomsky talked about Ellsberg in response to a question "Who has been the single greatest public figure of your lifetime?" https://youtu.be/TQ-Crh3rdQA?t=1946 https://youtu.be/TQ-Crh3rdQA?t=1946 (BTW - the whole interview is well worth watching).
- 95014_refugee 3y ago
  In what sense? Chomsky is generally not worth listening to for a variety of reasons (dishonesty, denialism, whataboutism, tankism, etc.)
  - mistermann 3y ago
    Meme Magic (FTW?)
busterarm 3y ago
The Obama Administration absolutely persecuted the shit out of any and all whistleblowers and journalism sources. His use of the Espionage Act was absolutely unprecedented. If you think people lack courage, you don't have to look far as to why.
- nameistaken 3y ago
  How do I downvote comments?
  - raphman 3y ago
    You click on the downvote arrow. However, you need to have sufficient karma for the downvote arrow to appear. You do not appear to have passed this threshold yet. Also, if this was not a honest question but just a rethorical one: please read and take to heart the HN guidelines [1]. Essential part: It is better to explain why you disagree with the parent poster than to post snarky comments that do not contribute to the discussion. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- heybrendan 3y ago
  I'd like to learn more. Sources I can refer to?
  - vonwoodson 3y ago
    Binging “obama whistleblower crackdown” returns some pretty conservative leaning and conspiracy looking websites.
    - bigger_inside 3y ago
      it's really interesting where this comes from, and why this seems to some such an easy "gotcha". first off, that these come up doesn't mean they're wrong, though it does likely mean they're shallow. more deeply, this is an old, well-known dynamic often decried by the left. the left will dig deeper into often pretty obvious social dysfunctions and pioneer a social critique, analyzing the political and economic structures and systems that underpin it, and turn it into a challenge to existing authorities. This challenge is complicated, it hinges on teaching you political economy first, before it can even start to tell you what the systemic problem actually is. but it touches on real problems people feel every day. The conservatives make a media thing out of it. Now, mass media, forever, has made their money by selling your prejudices back to you; from entertainment to news, they all basically work this way. Conservatives work this way as well (making for that sweet synergy between the two): it takes a run-down, stripped-down, dumbed-down version of the criticism, strips all political economy analysis from it (can't have them blame capitalism!), frinds some easy scarecrow figures - Gates, Soros, whoever (not that they're not horrible people, but that's not the point really), ascribes "debauchery and corruption" to them (because then the SYSTEM is fine). In the end, when people then google the problems, they find these easy stories, which makes them associate the identification of the problem with these dumbed-down assaults. Then even mentioning the problem becomes that.

brandonmenc 3y ago

The major difference is that Ellsberg was a civilian.

toyg 3y ago
So what you're saying is that anyone in the military loses their human rights.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Code_of_Military_Justice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Code_of_Military_Justi... > The UCMJ was established by the United States Congress in accordance with their constitutional authority, per Article I, Section 8, which provides that "The Congress shall have Power . . . to make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval forces" of the United States.
- zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
  That's like saying people who sign NDAs lose their human rights.
- verall 3y ago
  Like, literally You can be ordered to take chemicals or medications which have not been FDA approved, and you can be put in jail for refusing. You can under certain circumstances be compelled to testify against yourself (5th amendment waived).
  - mattparcens 3y ago
    Without bound?
  - cfeduke 3y ago
    > You can be ordered to take chemicals or medications which have not been FDA approved, and you can be put in jail for refusing. It's sort of like that and not at the same time. Under the UCMJ, refusing a lawful order can put you in the brig, or a variety of punishments applied (NJP, loss of rank, loss of pay, etc.). Under most circumstances, forcing a service member to ingest an unknown drug is not a lawful order. Under official civilian authority you can be highly encouraged to take an untested vaccine or some such, and refusal, while not disobeying a lawful order, can end up with you receiving unpleasant treatment. (You are there under contract for a set period of time, after all, so a long period of time of unpleasant treatment can be motivation enough to do things you wouldn't normally want to do.) I was able to avoid the anthrax vaccine around 2000 by refusing to sign a waiver. I ended up getting transferred to a new command shortly thereafter which was scheduled long before this anthrax vaccine situation, but I can't be certain that there were going to be any repercussions regardless of my decision because most of my fellow service members at that time were unwilling to be test subjects as well.

Rediscover 3y ago

A major reason why the Viet Nam war died.