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Just calling out that inevitably, you'll hear from another side of this debate that will claim the West is trying to suppress rising countries like China from b

Just calling out that inevitably, you'll hear from another side of this debate that will claim the West is trying to suppress rising countries like China from becoming globally competitive because the west is trying to get them "force green policies" on other countries and skip the parts we had the luxury to go through. Never mind the fact that you can modernize in a way that isn't environmentally destructive, mind you. I've seen this happen on HN multiple times w/r/ to mentioning China's environmental policies

Ekaros 3y ago
I think we can reasonably only complain about China when it is beyond the per capita levels of USA.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Morally sure. When we all start dying anyways, then all bets are off.
- 908B64B197 3y ago
  > per capita levels The thing is, from the planet's perspective, per-capita or whatever made-up metric don't matter. A ton of CO2 is a ton of CO2 no matter what.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    So from planet's perspective best would be to downgrade living standards of everyone alive today to pre-industrial levels. As that will lead to lowest CO2 emissions?
    - no_wizard 3y ago
      Why not use green tech from the outset? Really no good reason not to at this point. Its demonstrably beneficial from less pollution to lower overall emissions, and builds up a "next gen" of expertise that will be extremely valuable over the next century, whoever gets these investments done will be in a great place over the next century relative to those who are later to the game, and that expertise will be very valuable (and a huge engine for economic growth). Go where the puck is moving, not where it is.
  - dirtyid 3y ago
    From the planet's perspective, climate change doesn't matter. Mass extinction events are rounding errors on geologic / deep time scales. We can launch all the nukes tomorrow and it won't matter in a few thousand years. Climate change "matters" in relation to it being an anthropocene problem, and the only way to make it matter to humans requires using metrics that can be coordinated around.
908B64B197 3y ago
> will claim the West is trying to suppress rising countries like China from becoming globally competitive because the west is trying to get them "force green policies" on other countries and skip the parts we had the luxury to go through. What these posters don't understand (and I'm sure certain are paid not to understand it [0]) is that the West didn't have the luxury to just be able to import environmentally friendly technologies and industrial processes from somewhere else; it had to bootstrap itself from nothing. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party

Ekaros 3y ago

I think we can reasonably only complain about China when it is beyond the per capita levels of USA.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Morally sure. When we all start dying anyways, then all bets are off.
908B64B197 3y ago
> per capita levels The thing is, from the planet's perspective, per-capita or whatever made-up metric don't matter. A ton of CO2 is a ton of CO2 no matter what.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  So from planet's perspective best would be to downgrade living standards of everyone alive today to pre-industrial levels. As that will lead to lowest CO2 emissions?
  - no_wizard 3y ago
    Why not use green tech from the outset? Really no good reason not to at this point. Its demonstrably beneficial from less pollution to lower overall emissions, and builds up a "next gen" of expertise that will be extremely valuable over the next century, whoever gets these investments done will be in a great place over the next century relative to those who are later to the game, and that expertise will be very valuable (and a huge engine for economic growth). Go where the puck is moving, not where it is.
- dirtyid 3y ago
  From the planet's perspective, climate change doesn't matter. Mass extinction events are rounding errors on geologic / deep time scales. We can launch all the nukes tomorrow and it won't matter in a few thousand years. Climate change "matters" in relation to it being an anthropocene problem, and the only way to make it matter to humans requires using metrics that can be coordinated around.

908B64B197 3y ago

> will claim the West is trying to suppress rising countries like China from becoming globally competitive because the west is trying to get them "force green policies" on other countries and skip the parts we had the luxury to go through. What these posters don't understand (and I'm sure certain are paid not to understand it [0]) is that the West didn't have the luxury to just be able to import environmentally friendly technologies and industrial processes from somewhere else; it had to bootstrap itself from nothing. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party