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The west is working hard at lowering it's emissions, but all that work is getting undone because China's emissions aren't slowing down. Coal is incredibly cheap

The west is working hard at lowering it's emissions, but all that work is getting undone because China's emissions aren't slowing down. Coal is incredibly cheap when there's no carbon tax or emission standards. One of the many reasons it's cheaper to manufacture in China and why North Americans and Europeans can't compete [0]. Comparing the US[1] and China[2], the US has: - Decreasing per capita emissions in the US starting in 1973 (-27%) - A decrease in the countries emission starting in 2007 (-13%) Meanwhile for the same period China has had - a 7x increase per capita since 1973 (+532%) - 48% increase for its global emissions since 2007 So it is possible to drastically reduce our carbon footprint thanks to innovation and smarter power generation. Time to add tariffs on goods produced by states who made the decision of going all-in on polluting power generation, and potentially apply immigration quotas to citizens of these countries. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/26/us-leads-greenhouse-gas-emissions-on-a-per-capita-basis-report-finds.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/26/us-leads-greenhouse-gas-emis... [1] https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/united-states https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/united-states [2] https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/china https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/china

no_wizard 3y ago
Just calling out that inevitably, you'll hear from another side of this debate that will claim the West is trying to suppress rising countries like China from becoming globally competitive because the west is trying to get them "force green policies" on other countries and skip the parts we had the luxury to go through. Never mind the fact that you can modernize in a way that isn't environmentally destructive, mind you. I've seen this happen on HN multiple times w/r/ to mentioning China's environmental policies
- Ekaros 3y ago
  I think we can reasonably only complain about China when it is beyond the per capita levels of USA.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Morally sure. When we all start dying anyways, then all bets are off.
  - 908B64B197 3y ago
    > per capita levels The thing is, from the planet's perspective, per-capita or whatever made-up metric don't matter. A ton of CO2 is a ton of CO2 no matter what.
    - Ekaros 3y ago
      So from planet's perspective best would be to downgrade living standards of everyone alive today to pre-industrial levels. As that will lead to lowest CO2 emissions?
      - no_wizard 3y ago
        Why not use green tech from the outset? Really no good reason not to at this point. Its demonstrably beneficial from less pollution to lower overall emissions, and builds up a "next gen" of expertise that will be extremely valuable over the next century, whoever gets these investments done will be in a great place over the next century relative to those who are later to the game, and that expertise will be very valuable (and a huge engine for economic growth). Go where the puck is moving, not where it is.
    - dirtyid 3y ago
      From the planet's perspective, climate change doesn't matter. Mass extinction events are rounding errors on geologic / deep time scales. We can launch all the nukes tomorrow and it won't matter in a few thousand years. Climate change "matters" in relation to it being an anthropocene problem, and the only way to make it matter to humans requires using metrics that can be coordinated around.
- 908B64B197 3y ago
  > will claim the West is trying to suppress rising countries like China from becoming globally competitive because the west is trying to get them "force green policies" on other countries and skip the parts we had the luxury to go through. What these posters don't understand (and I'm sure certain are paid not to understand it [0]) is that the West didn't have the luxury to just be able to import environmentally friendly technologies and industrial processes from somewhere else; it had to bootstrap itself from nothing. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party
bryanlarsen 3y ago
It seems that the same people that complain that China is building too many coal plants are the same people that complain that China builds 80% of the world's batteries and 80% of the world's solar panels. China gets a higher percentage of its electricity from renewable than the US. China's EV market share is 34%. China's emissions per PPP$ are dropping at a rate faster than US's are. Could China do better? Absolutely. But those in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  > It seems that the same people that complain that China is building too many coal plants are the same people that complain that China builds 80% of the world's batteries and 80% of the world's solar panels. Usually these are two different sets of people. But people tend to assign an homogenous identity to all China critics. In fact, I don't think anyone is really complaining about Chinese solar panels beyond dumping allegations (that they are selling them undercost to force out international competitors), battery is just another variation of pollution concerns and hoarding of rare earth minerals (which really aren't that rare). Coal plants, well, it really only affects China. My complaints about them came from living in Beijing during bad AQI days. > But those in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. I believe this phrase was coined by Kruschev when he invented the what aboutism.

no_wizard 3y ago

Just calling out that inevitably, you'll hear from another side of this debate that will claim the West is trying to suppress rising countries like China from becoming globally competitive because the west is trying to get them "force green policies" on other countries and skip the parts we had the luxury to go through. Never mind the fact that you can modernize in a way that isn't environmentally destructive, mind you. I've seen this happen on HN multiple times w/r/ to mentioning China's environmental policies

Ekaros 3y ago
I think we can reasonably only complain about China when it is beyond the per capita levels of USA.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Morally sure. When we all start dying anyways, then all bets are off.
- 908B64B197 3y ago
  > per capita levels The thing is, from the planet's perspective, per-capita or whatever made-up metric don't matter. A ton of CO2 is a ton of CO2 no matter what.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    So from planet's perspective best would be to downgrade living standards of everyone alive today to pre-industrial levels. As that will lead to lowest CO2 emissions?
    - no_wizard 3y ago
      Why not use green tech from the outset? Really no good reason not to at this point. Its demonstrably beneficial from less pollution to lower overall emissions, and builds up a "next gen" of expertise that will be extremely valuable over the next century, whoever gets these investments done will be in a great place over the next century relative to those who are later to the game, and that expertise will be very valuable (and a huge engine for economic growth). Go where the puck is moving, not where it is.
  - dirtyid 3y ago
    From the planet's perspective, climate change doesn't matter. Mass extinction events are rounding errors on geologic / deep time scales. We can launch all the nukes tomorrow and it won't matter in a few thousand years. Climate change "matters" in relation to it being an anthropocene problem, and the only way to make it matter to humans requires using metrics that can be coordinated around.
908B64B197 3y ago
> will claim the West is trying to suppress rising countries like China from becoming globally competitive because the west is trying to get them "force green policies" on other countries and skip the parts we had the luxury to go through. What these posters don't understand (and I'm sure certain are paid not to understand it [0]) is that the West didn't have the luxury to just be able to import environmentally friendly technologies and industrial processes from somewhere else; it had to bootstrap itself from nothing. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party

bryanlarsen 3y ago

It seems that the same people that complain that China is building too many coal plants are the same people that complain that China builds 80% of the world's batteries and 80% of the world's solar panels. China gets a higher percentage of its electricity from renewable than the US. China's EV market share is 34%. China's emissions per PPP$ are dropping at a rate faster than US's are. Could China do better? Absolutely. But those in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
> It seems that the same people that complain that China is building too many coal plants are the same people that complain that China builds 80% of the world's batteries and 80% of the world's solar panels. Usually these are two different sets of people. But people tend to assign an homogenous identity to all China critics. In fact, I don't think anyone is really complaining about Chinese solar panels beyond dumping allegations (that they are selling them undercost to force out international competitors), battery is just another variation of pollution concerns and hoarding of rare earth minerals (which really aren't that rare). Coal plants, well, it really only affects China. My complaints about them came from living in Beijing during bad AQI days. > But those in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. I believe this phrase was coined by Kruschev when he invented the what aboutism.