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How is this supposed to be believable from a company that has been bashing EVs for the last few years, doing everything they can to not make any, not promote th

How is this supposed to be believable from a company that has been bashing EVs for the last few years, doing everything they can to not make any, not promote them, and tell everyone that hybrids and ICE cars are better?

itsoktocry 3y ago
>How is this supposed to be believable What are you saying? That they aren't doing research? That they are straight-out lying? I don't see this as in conflict with their claims that EVs, as is, aren't the future.
- dtagames 3y ago
  I think they are trying to drag out their EV strategy as long as the market will let them. Since it's nonexistent, that could be a while. It isn't possible to leapfrog everyone in EVs when you've been trying hard to milk your existing factories and products instead of getting any experience actually building and selling them. I owned a Prius when they were new and I fully expected Toyota to become the world leader in EVs. Had they done that, I would also believe this battery story. But not today.
  - WorldMaker 3y ago
    On top of that we know that Toyota's EV strategy was heavily invested in R&D of Hydrogen fuel cells. They made some wrong bets and it continues to show. If the article didn't specifically mention that their plans involved some new formulation of Lithium Iron Phosphate I'd have expected "solid state EVs" to just be fresh marketing hype of Hydrogen fuel cells, because of Toyota's recent history.
Juicyy 3y ago
new CEO... new priorities. How is the top automaker on top? making good moves. Toyota has been correct that hybrids have been the best setup for the past 10 and next 10 years. Charging infra is catching up but a major bottleneck. Range too.
- fwungy 3y ago
  90 HEV = 6 PHEV = 1 BEV, 90:6:1 is Toyota's opinion. You get way more zero emission VMT using batteries in the HEV and PHEV role. A lot of BEVs are second or third cars for wealthy people who keep some sort of ICE as well. Those cars don't generate lots of VMT so their batteries are effectively being wasted.
  - panick21_ 3y ago
    HEV are just slightly more efficient, they still use 100% fossil fuels and still produce harmful emissions right in places where humans breath it. In terms of 6 PHEV to 1 EV. This math comes with a lot of issues. First, it only works if people actually plug in their PHEV constantly and evince shows that they don't. And if you don't a PHEV is just a ICE vehicle with a shitty engine. Plus the issue with PHEV is that they are expensive and complex to produce. Most car companies don't really like them because its hard to make any money on them and unlike with BEV there isn't a path to making money on them in the future. Specially as the ICE supply chain increasingly goes away. Also even if Toyota thinks PHEV are good, there clearly is a large demand for BEV and Toyota is large enough that they could have done both just fine. Had they just invested in BEV instead of Hydrogen maybe they could be a leading player in HEV, PHEV and BEV.
    - fwungy 3y ago
      Most of the energy for BEVs is produced from fossil fuels as well. The Gorilla in the Room for fossil fuel emissions is Russia and OPEC. Are Russia and OPEC going to walk away from trillions of dollars of oil wealth? Are the developing nations, like India, going to walk away from cheap ICE technologies, for more expensive and complex green technologies? If not, all the aggressive switching by the OECD nations is for naught. Toyota believes the developing world will still want ICEs for a long time, and the oil nations will still want to sell it.
      - Shaanie 3y ago
        What's the car company revenue in the modern west vs India and other developing nations? I'm sure the developing world will still want ICE vehicles, but is that really where the money is?
fwungy 3y ago
Bashing != diverse opinion on the future role of BEV's in the vehicle mix.
- rasz 3y ago
  diverse indeed https://electrek.co/2021/11/11/how-toyota-sneakily-spreads-anti-ev-propaganda-in-japan/ https://electrek.co/2021/11/11/how-toyota-sneakily-spreads-a...
  - fwungy 3y ago
    electrek.co is hardly an objective source.
    - panick21_ 3y ago
      Toyota isn't hiding its stance on EV and environment. The are part of automotive lobbying groups preventing stricter emission standard. This isn't a conspiracy, just simple fact on what Toyota has been doing that. Everybody in the car industry knows this.

itsoktocry 3y ago

>How is this supposed to be believable What are you saying? That they aren't doing research? That they are straight-out lying? I don't see this as in conflict with their claims that EVs, as is, aren't the future.

dtagames 3y ago
I think they are trying to drag out their EV strategy as long as the market will let them. Since it's nonexistent, that could be a while. It isn't possible to leapfrog everyone in EVs when you've been trying hard to milk your existing factories and products instead of getting any experience actually building and selling them. I owned a Prius when they were new and I fully expected Toyota to become the world leader in EVs. Had they done that, I would also believe this battery story. But not today.
- WorldMaker 3y ago
  On top of that we know that Toyota's EV strategy was heavily invested in R&D of Hydrogen fuel cells. They made some wrong bets and it continues to show. If the article didn't specifically mention that their plans involved some new formulation of Lithium Iron Phosphate I'd have expected "solid state EVs" to just be fresh marketing hype of Hydrogen fuel cells, because of Toyota's recent history.

Juicyy 3y ago

new CEO... new priorities. How is the top automaker on top? making good moves. Toyota has been correct that hybrids have been the best setup for the past 10 and next 10 years. Charging infra is catching up but a major bottleneck. Range too.

fwungy 3y ago
90 HEV = 6 PHEV = 1 BEV, 90:6:1 is Toyota's opinion. You get way more zero emission VMT using batteries in the HEV and PHEV role. A lot of BEVs are second or third cars for wealthy people who keep some sort of ICE as well. Those cars don't generate lots of VMT so their batteries are effectively being wasted.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  HEV are just slightly more efficient, they still use 100% fossil fuels and still produce harmful emissions right in places where humans breath it. In terms of 6 PHEV to 1 EV. This math comes with a lot of issues. First, it only works if people actually plug in their PHEV constantly and evince shows that they don't. And if you don't a PHEV is just a ICE vehicle with a shitty engine. Plus the issue with PHEV is that they are expensive and complex to produce. Most car companies don't really like them because its hard to make any money on them and unlike with BEV there isn't a path to making money on them in the future. Specially as the ICE supply chain increasingly goes away. Also even if Toyota thinks PHEV are good, there clearly is a large demand for BEV and Toyota is large enough that they could have done both just fine. Had they just invested in BEV instead of Hydrogen maybe they could be a leading player in HEV, PHEV and BEV.
  - fwungy 3y ago
    Most of the energy for BEVs is produced from fossil fuels as well. The Gorilla in the Room for fossil fuel emissions is Russia and OPEC. Are Russia and OPEC going to walk away from trillions of dollars of oil wealth? Are the developing nations, like India, going to walk away from cheap ICE technologies, for more expensive and complex green technologies? If not, all the aggressive switching by the OECD nations is for naught. Toyota believes the developing world will still want ICEs for a long time, and the oil nations will still want to sell it.
    - Shaanie 3y ago
      What's the car company revenue in the modern west vs India and other developing nations? I'm sure the developing world will still want ICE vehicles, but is that really where the money is?

fwungy 3y ago

Bashing != diverse opinion on the future role of BEV's in the vehicle mix.

rasz 3y ago
diverse indeed https://electrek.co/2021/11/11/how-toyota-sneakily-spreads-anti-ev-propaganda-in-japan/ https://electrek.co/2021/11/11/how-toyota-sneakily-spreads-a...
- fwungy 3y ago
  electrek.co is hardly an objective source.
  - panick21_ 3y ago
    Toyota isn't hiding its stance on EV and environment. The are part of automotive lobbying groups preventing stricter emission standard. This isn't a conspiracy, just simple fact on what Toyota has been doing that. Everybody in the car industry knows this.