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Im not a fan of how reddit is handling the situation, but: > To push an app no-one ever liked, you know that, but whatever. No-one likes “new” Reddit either, y

Im not a fan of how reddit is handling the situation, but: > To push an app no-one ever liked, you know that, but whatever. No-one likes “new” Reddit either, you know that, but whatever. Who’s even gonna use the site after this? Is just not true at all unless you have actual stats to back that up. A ton of people disagree with that take. The site has grown a massive amount since the new design was released in 2018. So people dont mind it and probably never experienced the old layout. Additionally, the 1st party mobile app sits at #2 (2.6M reviews -- 4.8[1]) vs #10 (up from ~30 in May) for apollo (170.5k reviews -- 4.7[2]). That also tells me that a huge amount of users are perfectly fine with the reddit app. So, knowing those basic facts, is it at all surprising that reddit is reacting this way? They are trying to keep the main, core userbase happy. The users/mods that are pushing this blackout are most definitely in the minority, and they are being disruptive to the greater userbase that clearly doesnt care. disclaimer: old.reddit user of 13 years and only recently switched to apollo from alien blue. just calling it like i see it. [1] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/reddit/id1064216828 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/reddit/id1064216828 [2] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/apollo-for-reddit/id979274575 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/apollo-for-reddit/id979274575

sleepybrett 3y ago
I use the reddit app very occasionally. Mostly when I'm away from my laptop and someone DMs or replies to me. For actually USING reddit, browsing threads etc it is woefully shitty experience.
atraac 3y ago
> They are trying to keep the main, core userbase happy. But there's a very simple way to do that... sit down with people, figure out a solution that doesn't involve a single dev spending 20m USD a year just to maintain an app that people like. There's multitudes of ways this whole thing could've been solved, they clearly don't wont to solve it. Paid API is NOT going to make reddit profitable, especially at this price. It's funny to me that anyone actually even believes that. Hosting costs are not the problem, they have 2000 employees. For a site that can't get any feature fully functioning, has one of the worst ads in the business that noone wants to buy and is almost fully maintained by community for free, it's quite a lot of employees.
- goykasi 3y ago
  100% agreement with you here. You have one of the first logical arguments for any push back. > figure out a solution that doesn't involve a single dev spending 20m USD a year just to maintain an app that people like Absolutely, I was hoping that would happen when I saw the first Apollo thread(s) a few weeks ago. But Christian took this very personally, and he decided to take his toys and go home. reddit is not at all innocent here. They definitely had many missteps, but I think both sides did. And now that talks have broken down, reddit has little reason to come back to the table. > Paid API is NOT going to make reddit profitable, especially at this price. It's funny to me that anyone actually even believes that. Hosting costs are not the problem, they have 2000 employees. For a site that can't get any feature fully functioning, has one of the worst ads in the business that noone wants to buy and is almost fully maintained by community for free, it's quite a lot of employees. This is the heart of it for me personally. reddit has much bigger problems than just the API hosting/pricing. Drawing the line in the sand about the API and profitability doesnt make a lot of sense. Having 2000 employees (why?), hosting images and videos (value?), nfts (why?) and not following through on features is their actual downfall. They pivoted away from their core competency -- content aggregation and easy to use forums. I think they will survive though.
  - jeltz 3y ago
    Why shouldn't he have taken it personally? He got 30 days notice from Reddit that they will change the pricing in a way likely to kill his business? With more advance notice he could have investigated ways to adapt his business or tried to lobby politely for a different pricing model. With this short notice he basically was forced to shut down. I do not fault Christian at all for taking it personally, Reddit handled it very poorly.
    - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
      And to add insult to the injury, u/spez was caught red handed lying about the conversation and what took place, and then when that surfaced, doubled down.
    - 3y ago
Panzer04 3y ago
"Core" user base != tyranny of the majority. Alienating a huge amount of clearly passionate reddit users in favour of Joe schmoe browsing on the train home sounds like a dangerous decision - reddit sti needs all those people who provide the content people browse for, etc. In any case, at this point the bigger issue for a lot of people is just the total disrespect reddit has publicly announced, repeatedly, towards its users. That some people don't care about this disrespect doesn't make it nonpresent.
- nkuttler 3y ago
  > reddit sti needs all those people who provide the content people browse for, etc Seems like they are betting their future on commercial content producers. If you're on /r/all a lot of the content is already reposts, disguised corporate posts, professional reshufflers and karma hoarders, etc.
- marginalia_nu 3y ago
  I think it's also worth noting that the actual contributing members on message boards is a tiny minority[1][2][3]. Activity appears to follow a Pareto distribution. The members that not only contribute, but regularly contribute quality content is a minority within that minority. The vast majority is scrolling and blowing air out their nose, maybe voting, maybe very occasionally leaving a comment. From a monetization sense, it may look tempting to focus on retaining that passive minority, but what risks happening is a dead sea effect where it enters a cycle of contributors leaving because contributions are deteriorating in quality. That can be nearly impossible to reverse. [1] https://jennchen.com/blog/business/were-all-lurkers/ https://jennchen.com/blog/business/were-all-lurkers/ [2] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222436334_The_Top_Five_Reasons_for_Lurking_Improving_Community_Experiences_for_Everyone https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222436334_The_Top_F... [3] https://publikationen.bibliothek.kit.edu/1000129213/101128289 https://publikationen.bibliothek.kit.edu/1000129213/10112828...
  - amadeuspagel 3y ago
    Yes of course. And that tiny minority of course shares your preferences about UI design.
manmademagic 3y ago
It would be pretty hard to do a fair comparison between the users of the Reddit app and Apollo. Accessing reddit.com on a mobile will bombard you with pop ups to get you to access through the official app, while Apollo would only be found via word of mouth or actively seeking an alternative. Review score average might be a better, where they're pretty on par in that regard, but again hard to tell if that's an indication of each app or a review of the content served by reddit itself.
intothemild 3y ago
I don't disagree with your line of thinking here. But the big difference you're missing is that the kind of users that use old.reddit or third party apps are the power users. Sure the Reddit app sits in its position in the app stores, but you ask most frequent users on reddit, and they all say they transitioned to a third party app. So my point is i see things like the app as entry points for new users, and then those users either churn or end up transitioning to third party apps to make their experience better.
- goykasi 3y ago
  > use old.reddit or third party apps are the power users Are they? > they all say they transitioned to a third party app Have they? Who asked? Im inclined to believe a lot of these things. I used to work for a large network of forums in the late 00s. We had a lot of traffic but didnt require 2000 employees (literally only 5 dev to manage 250mil monthly pageviews). In all reality we might been reddit if we got lucky, but we didnt. Oh well. So, I tend to side with the users, but I do understand the behaviors in play. Im not trying to be argumentative just to blindly support reddit, but so many people are just throwing out stats as if they are correct with zero proof. Its almost impossible to have an honest conversation when the facts are being made up on the spot. This whole situation has become so emotional.
pmoriarty 3y ago
"the 1st party mobile app sits at #2 (2.6M reviews -- 4.8[1]) vs #10 (up from ~30 in May) for apollo (170.5k reviews -- 4.7[2])." Lots of people probably install the official app, just to try it out, but that doesn't mean they actually use it. I installed it myself a long time ago, but I never use it because it's garbage compared to Boost (my preferred 3rd party app).
- goykasi 3y ago
  Youre absolutely correct. Thats why I didnt mention install counts. Apple doesnt publish those numbers, and I didnt want to make any assumptions about them. But I am comfortable assuming that those reviews come from users that did install and use both apps. The opinions seems to be very positive for both. I do find it interesting that Apollo had such a steep popularity increase in the last couple of weeks[1]. [1] https://www.similarweb.com/app/app-store/979274575/statistics/ https://www.similarweb.com/app/app-store/979274575/statistic...
  - OJFord 3y ago
    Many people reviewing the Reddit app will be reviewing Reddit the platform, not the app as a means of accessing the platform.
    - goykasi 3y ago
      Im curious about your source on that one, but let's suppose that that statement is true. Couldn't you say the same for Apollo? So, the large amount of positive reviews for the mobile clients also speak positively for the platform. Is that what you are theorizing?
      - OJFord 3y ago
        Just anecdotally from my experience glancing at reviews occasionally on apps like that, that have a physical presence or a website. In the latter case I think it's inevitable and completely fair, the app can be the primary way you interact with it, how you discovered it, how someone else may discover it, and a review of the thing itself might be perfectly useful. I think it's less likely to happen with Apollo if at all, because those users are clearly aware of, and even have front of mind in the moment, the distinction between Reddit the platform and Apollo the client. The number of people who discovered Reddit via Apollo must surely be extremely small?
idop 3y ago
You may be right, but keep in mind that the comparison with Apollo isn't a fair one. There are many third party Reddit clients. Red Reader (which I use), Reddit Is Fun, Stealth, Infinity, Dawn, and many more. You'd have to combine all of those. You may still not reach Reddit's official app's numbers, but it is probably not a negligible percentage of Reddit's userbase.
pea 3y ago
There was the old adage for Excel that: - 100% of people view spreadsheets - 10% of people use something like SUM() or similar - 1% of people write VB macros You can create a product which works well for the _average_ viewer, but if it sucks for the 1% of 10% (maybe mods or contributors in this analogy), you're going to create a bad user experience for everyone.
- tialaramex 3y ago
  Loads of Excel users aren't really doing "spreadsheets" except in the sense that it's Excel and that's a spreadsheet software, so arguably this is a spreadsheet. The same way arguably if I type this novel into Visio now that's a diagram. Like, is "An Oak Tree" a sculpture? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Oak_Tree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Oak_Tree For many Excel users it's like computerised graph paper, they can write stuff in boxes, maybe use it to make a calendar, they can colour the boxes in - yes, they can do arithmetic on the boxes, but many of them are surprised to find out that's what it is actually for.
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    The point is that those people wouldn't be using Excel if it didn't support the advanced usage. They would be using some other tool, that supported it. And yes, even if all they want is to paint some squares by hand.
  - Applejinx 3y ago
    Just as a side note: > It was once barred by Australian officials from entering the country as "vegetation".[13][14] Craig-Martin was forced to inform them that it was really a glass of water. He said, "It was of course a wonderfully funny incident, particularly because it extended into 'real life' the discussion about belief and doubt, and fact and fiction I was addressing in the work." I'm somehow really let down by the guy's failure to commit to the bit. It's not an artwork unless he commits to the bit… far as I can tell, he should have gone along with it as the customs officials were doing. What a killjoy :)
    - 3y ago
seydor 3y ago
Apollo is also ios-only
buu709 3y ago
I get what you're saying, and somewhat agree, but Reddit has shown they're willing to fill their own communities with bot posts to pad their numbers. What makes you think they're not buying reviews?
tolmasky 3y ago
Full disclosure, I use the main Reddit app. I don't think that I've ever installed a different app. That being said, I think it's actually pretty crazy that Apollo is #10 (in News). It's not clear that being 8 spots higher is that much of an accomplishment considering the site itself is constantly pestering you to install it, and the Reddit app can be used completely for free vs. the Apollo app requiring you to pay (which may by itself explain the .1 difference in reviews). Actually, I just went to the AppStore to read the bad reviews, and sorted by "Most Critical", and from a very short cursory glance it seems that most of the new bad reviews are from people who are angry that they bought a lifetime subscription and the app is now shutting down. It's kind of impressive that it is still at 4.7, honestly. But more importantly, I think this also means that the 4.8 vs. 4.7 comparison isn't necessarily representative of the sentiment a month ago. I am in basic agreement with everyone that the core app sucks. It just means that I use Reddit less in general instead of going out of my way to fix their problem for them by finding an app that works. That is another failure case that isn't really considered: there's a bunch of opportunity cost just in people who have a bad experience and then switch to YouTube or whatever.
- jonesnc 3y ago
  > and the Reddit app can be used completely for free vs. the Apollo app requiring you to pay I've been using Apollo for free for years, you don't need to pay for it.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- weaksauce 3y ago
  they seem to be cooking the books wrt the reviews. there are a ton of one word app reviews that are 5 star
- s3p 3y ago
  Apollo does not require you to pay.
- hjkl0 3y ago
zulban 3y ago
> keep the main, core userbase happy I think you're mistaking the apathetic hordes who don't contribute much with the power users, power posters, and moderators. I consider the latter to be the "core userbase". Not the big numbers that look good to an mba. If a team built a reddit replacement, they would want that 0.1%, not the rest.
- goykasi 3y ago
  > I consider the latter to be the "core userbase" How do you measure this? I see this a lot, but no one can ever quantify it. Is it just a feeling that people that make most of the content use old.reddit and 3rd party apps? Are we just hoping thats the case? Or maybe the "power users" are constantly changing or are actually corporate accounts? On a massive site where moderators get to decide what content makes it to the masses, it might make sense that the corporate/commercial users are the "power users." But Id have to put on my tinfoil hat to believe that.
bloqs 3y ago
This isn't a good take because the evidence is contextual. Joe Average users typically download the reddit app because they are forced to or face the dysfunctional mobile site. I watched my own partner do it. She doesnt like the app or care for reddit at all, its simply next generation facebook style walled garden garbage, including reddits fucking terrible video hosting format. The business has abandoned its once core userbase in favour of cheap eyeballs. It's sheer modern tech laziness and an embarassment to the "innovation" culture that it lazily still staples itself to.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  > including reddits fucking terrible video hosting format Yeah, include "why did Reddit insists on the cost of self-hosting videos if they didn't have the competence or the money to do it correctly?" on my list of reasons the CEO is an idiot.
- goykasi 3y ago
  > I watched my own partner do it. She doesnt like the app or care for reddit at al But did she leave a review? I dont mean to diminish your anecdote; I was strictly referring to public stats. Millions of people download and eventually ignore the app, but clearly enough are downloading it and having positive feelings about it. Thats how we got to this situation. > has abandoned its once core userbase in favour of cheap eyeballs I agree. It really sucks, but it is happening.
  - shkkmo 3y ago
    Who knows how many of those reviews are fake or low effort attempts to make the "leave a review" prompt stop appearing https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10664-019-09706-9#Sec27 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10664-019-09706-9...
rkangel 3y ago
[I don't have stats, but one anecdote:] I was originally a desktop user of Reddit, before the redesign. At some point I also installed Sync Pro to read occasionally on mobile, but it wasn't my primary interface to Reddit. I'm generally pretty open to redesigns. I don't have the dislike of change, and am ok with taking a little while to adapt to something new. Its usually an investmet in a better approach (e.g. MS Office introducing the Ribbon). So when the Reddit update happened I wasn't one of those people who rigorously stuck to Old Reddit - I just waited until I got used to it. What actually happened is that I stopped using Reddit online at all. Everything was so slow. It just became a chore to read threads. I didn't make this decision consciously, it's just what happened over time.
deeviant 3y ago
It's crazy the amount of people that seemed to be straining to support Reddit, it's almost, suspicious.
matheusmoreira 3y ago
Stats? Come on. Reddit pesters every mobile user agent to install their shitty app every time. It's like Google pushing Chrome. How many people install their malware just to stop getting nagged about it? People even say they made reddit web bad on purpose to drive people to the app. Show those users better third party apps with no ads and then ask them which they like more.
- taude 3y ago
  Why do you deserve to have no ads? Reddit isn't a community service. I do think that for moderators, they could have some special app to help them do their jobs easier, but for regular users, meh, the ads are easy enough to scroll past, like in other social media outfits. I also don't agree that the mobile app is shitty.
  - moi2388 3y ago
    Because ads are worse than cancer. The fact companies are allowed to jam them into your eyeballs without consent is absolutely ludicrous.
    - taude 3y ago
      how so? I just slide by them and move on with my life. It's absolutely mind-blowing to me the entitlement people have thinking they should get things for free.
      - matheusmoreira 3y ago
        Oh please. They're the ones who are entitled. They literally think they can sell our attention to advertisers. It's not theirs to sell. They chose to have a free site. Don't want to give things away for free? Charge for access then.
        danem 3y ago
        This is must be a parody, right? No, they chose to have a site funded by ads. If you don't want to be advertised to, get off Reddit.
croes 3y ago
Minority by quantity or quality? How many people visit reddit because they searcher something on google, how many do more than just read? Mods are part of the power users, alienating them can have a large effect on the community landscape
hatsunearu 3y ago
>The users/mods that are pushing this blackout are most definitely in the minority, and they are being disruptive to the greater userbase that clearly doesnt care. What kind of nonsense is this? How is the blackout messaging received so well with large amounts of upvotes? It's not censorship either--any opposition message that occasionally appears is often voted down into oblivion.
JohnTHaller 3y ago
I used to exclusively use old.reddit but switched to modern as my eyes got worse. I use the official reddit app on my Android phone and modern reddit in Firefox on my desktop and laptop as well as in Firefox for Android in desktop mode.

sleepybrett 3y ago

I use the reddit app very occasionally. Mostly when I'm away from my laptop and someone DMs or replies to me. For actually USING reddit, browsing threads etc it is woefully shitty experience.

atraac 3y ago

> They are trying to keep the main, core userbase happy. But there's a very simple way to do that... sit down with people, figure out a solution that doesn't involve a single dev spending 20m USD a year just to maintain an app that people like. There's multitudes of ways this whole thing could've been solved, they clearly don't wont to solve it. Paid API is NOT going to make reddit profitable, especially at this price. It's funny to me that anyone actually even believes that. Hosting costs are not the problem, they have 2000 employees. For a site that can't get any feature fully functioning, has one of the worst ads in the business that noone wants to buy and is almost fully maintained by community for free, it's quite a lot of employees.

goykasi 3y ago
100% agreement with you here. You have one of the first logical arguments for any push back. > figure out a solution that doesn't involve a single dev spending 20m USD a year just to maintain an app that people like Absolutely, I was hoping that would happen when I saw the first Apollo thread(s) a few weeks ago. But Christian took this very personally, and he decided to take his toys and go home. reddit is not at all innocent here. They definitely had many missteps, but I think both sides did. And now that talks have broken down, reddit has little reason to come back to the table. > Paid API is NOT going to make reddit profitable, especially at this price. It's funny to me that anyone actually even believes that. Hosting costs are not the problem, they have 2000 employees. For a site that can't get any feature fully functioning, has one of the worst ads in the business that noone wants to buy and is almost fully maintained by community for free, it's quite a lot of employees. This is the heart of it for me personally. reddit has much bigger problems than just the API hosting/pricing. Drawing the line in the sand about the API and profitability doesnt make a lot of sense. Having 2000 employees (why?), hosting images and videos (value?), nfts (why?) and not following through on features is their actual downfall. They pivoted away from their core competency -- content aggregation and easy to use forums. I think they will survive though.
- jeltz 3y ago
  Why shouldn't he have taken it personally? He got 30 days notice from Reddit that they will change the pricing in a way likely to kill his business? With more advance notice he could have investigated ways to adapt his business or tried to lobby politely for a different pricing model. With this short notice he basically was forced to shut down. I do not fault Christian at all for taking it personally, Reddit handled it very poorly.
  - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
    And to add insult to the injury, u/spez was caught red handed lying about the conversation and what took place, and then when that surfaced, doubled down.
  - 3y ago

Panzer04 3y ago

"Core" user base != tyranny of the majority. Alienating a huge amount of clearly passionate reddit users in favour of Joe schmoe browsing on the train home sounds like a dangerous decision - reddit sti needs all those people who provide the content people browse for, etc. In any case, at this point the bigger issue for a lot of people is just the total disrespect reddit has publicly announced, repeatedly, towards its users. That some people don't care about this disrespect doesn't make it nonpresent.

nkuttler 3y ago
> reddit sti needs all those people who provide the content people browse for, etc Seems like they are betting their future on commercial content producers. If you're on /r/all a lot of the content is already reposts, disguised corporate posts, professional reshufflers and karma hoarders, etc.
marginalia_nu 3y ago
I think it's also worth noting that the actual contributing members on message boards is a tiny minority[1][2][3]. Activity appears to follow a Pareto distribution. The members that not only contribute, but regularly contribute quality content is a minority within that minority. The vast majority is scrolling and blowing air out their nose, maybe voting, maybe very occasionally leaving a comment. From a monetization sense, it may look tempting to focus on retaining that passive minority, but what risks happening is a dead sea effect where it enters a cycle of contributors leaving because contributions are deteriorating in quality. That can be nearly impossible to reverse. [1] https://jennchen.com/blog/business/were-all-lurkers/ https://jennchen.com/blog/business/were-all-lurkers/ [2] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222436334_The_Top_Five_Reasons_for_Lurking_Improving_Community_Experiences_for_Everyone https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222436334_The_Top_F... [3] https://publikationen.bibliothek.kit.edu/1000129213/101128289 https://publikationen.bibliothek.kit.edu/1000129213/10112828...
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  Yes of course. And that tiny minority of course shares your preferences about UI design.

manmademagic 3y ago

It would be pretty hard to do a fair comparison between the users of the Reddit app and Apollo. Accessing reddit.com on a mobile will bombard you with pop ups to get you to access through the official app, while Apollo would only be found via word of mouth or actively seeking an alternative. Review score average might be a better, where they're pretty on par in that regard, but again hard to tell if that's an indication of each app or a review of the content served by reddit itself.

intothemild 3y ago

I don't disagree with your line of thinking here. But the big difference you're missing is that the kind of users that use old.reddit or third party apps are the power users. Sure the Reddit app sits in its position in the app stores, but you ask most frequent users on reddit, and they all say they transitioned to a third party app. So my point is i see things like the app as entry points for new users, and then those users either churn or end up transitioning to third party apps to make their experience better.

goykasi 3y ago
> use old.reddit or third party apps are the power users Are they? > they all say they transitioned to a third party app Have they? Who asked? Im inclined to believe a lot of these things. I used to work for a large network of forums in the late 00s. We had a lot of traffic but didnt require 2000 employees (literally only 5 dev to manage 250mil monthly pageviews). In all reality we might been reddit if we got lucky, but we didnt. Oh well. So, I tend to side with the users, but I do understand the behaviors in play. Im not trying to be argumentative just to blindly support reddit, but so many people are just throwing out stats as if they are correct with zero proof. Its almost impossible to have an honest conversation when the facts are being made up on the spot. This whole situation has become so emotional.

pmoriarty 3y ago

"the 1st party mobile app sits at #2 (2.6M reviews -- 4.8[1]) vs #10 (up from ~30 in May) for apollo (170.5k reviews -- 4.7[2])." Lots of people probably install the official app, just to try it out, but that doesn't mean they actually use it. I installed it myself a long time ago, but I never use it because it's garbage compared to Boost (my preferred 3rd party app).

goykasi 3y ago
Youre absolutely correct. Thats why I didnt mention install counts. Apple doesnt publish those numbers, and I didnt want to make any assumptions about them. But I am comfortable assuming that those reviews come from users that did install and use both apps. The opinions seems to be very positive for both. I do find it interesting that Apollo had such a steep popularity increase in the last couple of weeks[1]. [1] https://www.similarweb.com/app/app-store/979274575/statistics/ https://www.similarweb.com/app/app-store/979274575/statistic...
- OJFord 3y ago
  Many people reviewing the Reddit app will be reviewing Reddit the platform, not the app as a means of accessing the platform.
  - goykasi 3y ago
    Im curious about your source on that one, but let's suppose that that statement is true. Couldn't you say the same for Apollo? So, the large amount of positive reviews for the mobile clients also speak positively for the platform. Is that what you are theorizing?
    - OJFord 3y ago
      Just anecdotally from my experience glancing at reviews occasionally on apps like that, that have a physical presence or a website. In the latter case I think it's inevitable and completely fair, the app can be the primary way you interact with it, how you discovered it, how someone else may discover it, and a review of the thing itself might be perfectly useful. I think it's less likely to happen with Apollo if at all, because those users are clearly aware of, and even have front of mind in the moment, the distinction between Reddit the platform and Apollo the client. The number of people who discovered Reddit via Apollo must surely be extremely small?

idop 3y ago

You may be right, but keep in mind that the comparison with Apollo isn't a fair one. There are many third party Reddit clients. Red Reader (which I use), Reddit Is Fun, Stealth, Infinity, Dawn, and many more. You'd have to combine all of those. You may still not reach Reddit's official app's numbers, but it is probably not a negligible percentage of Reddit's userbase.

pea 3y ago

There was the old adage for Excel that: - 100% of people view spreadsheets - 10% of people use something like SUM() or similar - 1% of people write VB macros You can create a product which works well for the _average_ viewer, but if it sucks for the 1% of 10% (maybe mods or contributors in this analogy), you're going to create a bad user experience for everyone.

tialaramex 3y ago
Loads of Excel users aren't really doing "spreadsheets" except in the sense that it's Excel and that's a spreadsheet software, so arguably this is a spreadsheet. The same way arguably if I type this novel into Visio now that's a diagram. Like, is "An Oak Tree" a sculpture? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Oak_Tree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Oak_Tree For many Excel users it's like computerised graph paper, they can write stuff in boxes, maybe use it to make a calendar, they can colour the boxes in - yes, they can do arithmetic on the boxes, but many of them are surprised to find out that's what it is actually for.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  The point is that those people wouldn't be using Excel if it didn't support the advanced usage. They would be using some other tool, that supported it. And yes, even if all they want is to paint some squares by hand.
- Applejinx 3y ago
  Just as a side note: > It was once barred by Australian officials from entering the country as "vegetation".[13][14] Craig-Martin was forced to inform them that it was really a glass of water. He said, "It was of course a wonderfully funny incident, particularly because it extended into 'real life' the discussion about belief and doubt, and fact and fiction I was addressing in the work." I'm somehow really let down by the guy's failure to commit to the bit. It's not an artwork unless he commits to the bit… far as I can tell, he should have gone along with it as the customs officials were doing. What a killjoy :)
  - 3y ago

seydor 3y ago

Apollo is also ios-only

buu709 3y ago

I get what you're saying, and somewhat agree, but Reddit has shown they're willing to fill their own communities with bot posts to pad their numbers. What makes you think they're not buying reviews?

tolmasky 3y ago

Full disclosure, I use the main Reddit app. I don't think that I've ever installed a different app. That being said, I think it's actually pretty crazy that Apollo is #10 (in News). It's not clear that being 8 spots higher is that much of an accomplishment considering the site itself is constantly pestering you to install it, and the Reddit app can be used completely for free vs. the Apollo app requiring you to pay (which may by itself explain the .1 difference in reviews). Actually, I just went to the AppStore to read the bad reviews, and sorted by "Most Critical", and from a very short cursory glance it seems that most of the new bad reviews are from people who are angry that they bought a lifetime subscription and the app is now shutting down. It's kind of impressive that it is still at 4.7, honestly. But more importantly, I think this also means that the 4.8 vs. 4.7 comparison isn't necessarily representative of the sentiment a month ago. I am in basic agreement with everyone that the core app sucks. It just means that I use Reddit less in general instead of going out of my way to fix their problem for them by finding an app that works. That is another failure case that isn't really considered: there's a bunch of opportunity cost just in people who have a bad experience and then switch to YouTube or whatever.

jonesnc 3y ago
> and the Reddit app can be used completely for free vs. the Apollo app requiring you to pay I've been using Apollo for free for years, you don't need to pay for it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
weaksauce 3y ago
they seem to be cooking the books wrt the reviews. there are a ton of one word app reviews that are 5 star
s3p 3y ago
Apollo does not require you to pay.
hjkl0 3y ago

zulban 3y ago

> keep the main, core userbase happy I think you're mistaking the apathetic hordes who don't contribute much with the power users, power posters, and moderators. I consider the latter to be the "core userbase". Not the big numbers that look good to an mba. If a team built a reddit replacement, they would want that 0.1%, not the rest.

goykasi 3y ago
> I consider the latter to be the "core userbase" How do you measure this? I see this a lot, but no one can ever quantify it. Is it just a feeling that people that make most of the content use old.reddit and 3rd party apps? Are we just hoping thats the case? Or maybe the "power users" are constantly changing or are actually corporate accounts? On a massive site where moderators get to decide what content makes it to the masses, it might make sense that the corporate/commercial users are the "power users." But Id have to put on my tinfoil hat to believe that.

bloqs 3y ago

This isn't a good take because the evidence is contextual. Joe Average users typically download the reddit app because they are forced to or face the dysfunctional mobile site. I watched my own partner do it. She doesnt like the app or care for reddit at all, its simply next generation facebook style walled garden garbage, including reddits fucking terrible video hosting format. The business has abandoned its once core userbase in favour of cheap eyeballs. It's sheer modern tech laziness and an embarassment to the "innovation" culture that it lazily still staples itself to.

marcosdumay 3y ago
> including reddits fucking terrible video hosting format Yeah, include "why did Reddit insists on the cost of self-hosting videos if they didn't have the competence or the money to do it correctly?" on my list of reasons the CEO is an idiot.
goykasi 3y ago
> I watched my own partner do it. She doesnt like the app or care for reddit at al But did she leave a review? I dont mean to diminish your anecdote; I was strictly referring to public stats. Millions of people download and eventually ignore the app, but clearly enough are downloading it and having positive feelings about it. Thats how we got to this situation. > has abandoned its once core userbase in favour of cheap eyeballs I agree. It really sucks, but it is happening.
- shkkmo 3y ago
  Who knows how many of those reviews are fake or low effort attempts to make the "leave a review" prompt stop appearing https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10664-019-09706-9#Sec27 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10664-019-09706-9...

rkangel 3y ago

[I don't have stats, but one anecdote:] I was originally a desktop user of Reddit, before the redesign. At some point I also installed Sync Pro to read occasionally on mobile, but it wasn't my primary interface to Reddit. I'm generally pretty open to redesigns. I don't have the dislike of change, and am ok with taking a little while to adapt to something new. Its usually an investmet in a better approach (e.g. MS Office introducing the Ribbon). So when the Reddit update happened I wasn't one of those people who rigorously stuck to Old Reddit - I just waited until I got used to it. What actually happened is that I stopped using Reddit online at all. Everything was so slow. It just became a chore to read threads. I didn't make this decision consciously, it's just what happened over time.

deeviant 3y ago

It's crazy the amount of people that seemed to be straining to support Reddit, it's almost, suspicious.

matheusmoreira 3y ago

Stats? Come on. Reddit pesters every mobile user agent to install their shitty app every time. It's like Google pushing Chrome. How many people install their malware just to stop getting nagged about it? People even say they made reddit web bad on purpose to drive people to the app. Show those users better third party apps with no ads and then ask them which they like more.

taude 3y ago
Why do you deserve to have no ads? Reddit isn't a community service. I do think that for moderators, they could have some special app to help them do their jobs easier, but for regular users, meh, the ads are easy enough to scroll past, like in other social media outfits. I also don't agree that the mobile app is shitty.
- moi2388 3y ago
  Because ads are worse than cancer. The fact companies are allowed to jam them into your eyeballs without consent is absolutely ludicrous.
  - taude 3y ago
    how so? I just slide by them and move on with my life. It's absolutely mind-blowing to me the entitlement people have thinking they should get things for free.
    - matheusmoreira 3y ago
      Oh please. They're the ones who are entitled. They literally think they can sell our attention to advertisers. It's not theirs to sell. They chose to have a free site. Don't want to give things away for free? Charge for access then.
      - danem 3y ago
        This is must be a parody, right? No, they chose to have a site funded by ads. If you don't want to be advertised to, get off Reddit.

croes 3y ago

Minority by quantity or quality? How many people visit reddit because they searcher something on google, how many do more than just read? Mods are part of the power users, alienating them can have a large effect on the community landscape

hatsunearu 3y ago

>The users/mods that are pushing this blackout are most definitely in the minority, and they are being disruptive to the greater userbase that clearly doesnt care. What kind of nonsense is this? How is the blackout messaging received so well with large amounts of upvotes? It's not censorship either--any opposition message that occasionally appears is often voted down into oblivion.

JohnTHaller 3y ago

I used to exclusively use old.reddit but switched to modern as my eyes got worse. I use the official reddit app on my Android phone and modern reddit in Firefox on my desktop and laptop as well as in Firefox for Android in desktop mode.