6 ms·

Get a different phone then. Don't try to take the exact reason some of us bought an iPhone away from us.

by greggh 3y ago

TheRealPomax 3y ago
Ah yes, "instead of getting a feature added for free that I won't need, and the presence of which would not impact me or anyone like me in any way, shape, or form, how about everyone just buys another $1500 phone?" Maybe because getting a feature added for free that you won't need, and the presence of which would not impact you or anyone like you in any way, shape, or form, won't impact you or anyone like you in any way, shape, or form. Just go "I'd never need that, but power to you if Apple ever adds it. Which we can be pretty sure of they won't". Don't hate on folks for wanting things that you don't want, but also won't affect your life in any way if they got it.
- rad_gruchalski 3y ago
  > Maybe because getting a feature added for free that you won't need, and the presence of which would not impact you or anyone like you in any way, shape, or form, won't impact you or anyone like you in any way, shape, or form. How do you know that allowing sideloading does’t effectively mean opening a bunch of backdoors on the device? What if the the tight grip over the hardware + software is the best way to ensure that millions of users stay reasonably safe? Isn’t this basically a way to prevent supply chain attacks? I don’t know… do you know? How can you say such things with so much confidence?
  - kibwen 3y ago
    > How do you know that allowing sideloading does’t effectively mean opening a bunch of backdoors on the device? Because this is a technical forum, and we all know that this isn't how any of this works.
    - khazhoux 3y ago
      It is entirely plausible that iOS cannot remove all the security restrictions that would be necessary for a useful sideloading, without exposing attack vectors.
    - dubyah 3y ago
      There's an astounding amount of FUD against any prospect of side loading apps for such a supposedly technically oriented community here.
    - wruza 3y ago
      Sideloading means that apps can (and will) migrate from appstore to other store with relaxed taxes, privacy and security, and all users will face app serp hijacking and permission extortion. Not only those who want their android experience on iphone for some bizarre reason.
    - rad_gruchalski 3y ago
      I would love to hear some ideas about how it could be implemented without jeopardizing the security. A technical analysis, without words like "probably", "maybe". I'm fairly technical and ready to be enlightened.
  - chrischen 3y ago
    Allowing sideloading means allowing third party developers and large corporations to make their app force sideloading. If large companies like Uber, Facebook, et al require sideloading it will make it more acceptable for smaller companies and developers to do so. Pretty soon everyone would just say "sideload", including unscrupulous smaller developers. At that point since everyone is sideloading, no one would bat an eye to yet another sideloaded app. Not to mention why would anyone not choose to sideload to avoid the Apple tax?
- judge2020 3y ago
  But there's something to be said of getting a phone that specifically can't do certain things, whether that be for privacy (Facebook says: download the FB App Store to get Instagram!), security (evil maid attacks), or giving it to my great grandparent who just needs to use some social media apps and the phone app.
  - kibwen 3y ago
    No, this doesn't enable evil maid attacks. If your evil maid has the means to unlock your phone in order to enable sideloading, then it's already game over, because with that same access they can get your passwords and your 2FA second factor. Please stop trying to suggest that evil maid attacks are a concern here.
    - bigfudge 3y ago
      One time opportunistic and potentially brief access to the phone is different to installing spyware (during that brief access) which reports all activity forever more or allows Mitm on your data.
  - didntcheck 3y ago
    An APK is an APK. It's beholden to the same mandatory permissions system and has no extra abilities whether sideloaded or from the Play store. Sideloading != rooting
    - judge2020 3y ago
      Since about iOS 6, iOS exploits have started with a sandbox escape exploit, since the attack surface is so large with native code running on the device (only one since then, the Checkm8 exploit, used a USB exploit instead). Getting native code on a user's device for "free fortnite vbucks" is step one to silently jailbreaking phones and running adware/malware/spyware.
- worrycue 3y ago
  People are happy with the way things are. Why are you trying to mess with their things? If they want to use a phone that’s restricted to a walled garden App Store, that’s none of your business. Will you be taking responsibility if there are unforeseen consequences to side loading? There plenty of other phones out there that allow side loading. Go use one of those if it’s that important to you.
  - wiseowise 3y ago
    And allowing sideloading will ruin their walled garden experience how? Last time I checked, you need to explicitly go and enable it on Android.
    - worrycue 3y ago
      What part of the phrase “unforeseen consequences” did you fail to understand? I really don’t get it. So this particular product doesn’t meet your wants. Big deal. They are millions of products that don’t mean my wants, you don’t see me crusading on the bloody internet asking for them all to be changed. I just don’t buy them.
      - wiseowise 3y ago
        > What part of the phrase “unforeseen consequences” did you fail to understand? Sorry, I didn’t see need to address paranoid fears. > I really don’t get it. So this particular product doesn’t meet your wants. Big deal. They are millions of products that don’t mean my wants, you don’t see me crusading on the bloody internet asking for them all to be changed. I just don’t buy them. I really don’t get why me wanting product improved mobilizes internet on a crusade against my valid complaints about absurd limitations of platform.
      - TheRealPomax 3y ago
        Except, of course, there aren't millions of phones. There are two. So yeah, complaining that there are features missing for a large part of the target audience is rather perfectly rational behaviour for a customer base.
- 2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
  We’re over a decade into having smart phones. At this point, you’re going to have to weigh up what your priorities are and get the phone that does what you want. Not argue on the internet about the way things should be.
  - wiseowise 3y ago
    I did and I will. Don’t make it sound that Android is “iOS without walled garden”. I want ecosystem without bloat, that doesn’t spy on me and where I’m not the product that’s not the state of Android at the moment (unless you’re willing to bother with custom ROMs). I’ve paid 1,5k for this thing and have every right to complain.
    - 2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
      You are correct, you have the right to complain. But the companies involved show no signs of changing, and you keep handing them money and your complaints are toothless. And you won’t support a project that is more aligned with your goals.
      - wiseowise 3y ago
        > But the companies involved show no signs of changing, and you keep handing them money and your complaints are toothless. Are they? EU will force iOS into getting sideloading, like they forced them into adapting USB-C.
    - fsflover 3y ago
      > I’ve paid 1,5k for this thing and have every right to complain I agree that removing freedoms from the users is unethical and counterproductive. But at this point the only reasonable action is to give money to companies intentionally respecting your freedom. Sent from my Librem 5.
      - wiseowise 3y ago
        Disagree, what incentive does Apple have to listen for feedback from people who are not even in their ecosystem? Our household is pretty much Apple exclusively.
wwweston 3y ago
Honestly, if you think this is in any way a reasonable response to the layers of commentary above elaborating on why this isn't a zero-sum game and doesn't have to take anything from you, maybe someone should take your iPhone.
CamperBob2 3y ago
That Plato guy sure knew what he was talking about with the cave thing.
- ChainOfFools 3y ago
  Still relevant, except the cave is no longer an allegorical device but an actual device you mount on your eyes
wiseowise 3y ago
Get a feature phone.
didntcheck 3y ago
The exact reason being unable to do something you weren't going to do anyway, rendering the difference moot? You're not required to leave the garden because the wall has been removed. How is an extra option harming you?

Get a different phone then. Don't try to take the exact reason some of us bought an iPhone away from us.

by greggh 3y ago

Get a different phone then. Don't try to take the exact reason some of us bought an iPhone away from us.

Ah yes, "instead of getting a feature added for free that I won't need, and the presence of which would not impact me or anyone like me in any way, shape, or form, how about everyone just buys another $1500 phone?" Maybe because getting a feature added for free that you won't need, and the presence of which would not impact you or anyone like you in any way, shape, or form, won't impact you or anyone like you in any way, shape, or form. Just go "I'd never need that, but power to you if Apple ever adds it. Which we can be pretty sure of they won't". Don't hate on folks for wanting things that you don't want, but also won't affect your life in any way if they got it.

rad_gruchalski 3y ago
> Maybe because getting a feature added for free that you won't need, and the presence of which would not impact you or anyone like you in any way, shape, or form, won't impact you or anyone like you in any way, shape, or form. How do you know that allowing sideloading does’t effectively mean opening a bunch of backdoors on the device? What if the the tight grip over the hardware + software is the best way to ensure that millions of users stay reasonably safe? Isn’t this basically a way to prevent supply chain attacks? I don’t know… do you know? How can you say such things with so much confidence?
- kibwen 3y ago
  > How do you know that allowing sideloading does’t effectively mean opening a bunch of backdoors on the device? Because this is a technical forum, and we all know that this isn't how any of this works.
  - khazhoux 3y ago
    It is entirely plausible that iOS cannot remove all the security restrictions that would be necessary for a useful sideloading, without exposing attack vectors.
  - dubyah 3y ago
    There's an astounding amount of FUD against any prospect of side loading apps for such a supposedly technically oriented community here.
  - wruza 3y ago
    Sideloading means that apps can (and will) migrate from appstore to other store with relaxed taxes, privacy and security, and all users will face app serp hijacking and permission extortion. Not only those who want their android experience on iphone for some bizarre reason.
  - rad_gruchalski 3y ago
    I would love to hear some ideas about how it could be implemented without jeopardizing the security. A technical analysis, without words like "probably", "maybe". I'm fairly technical and ready to be enlightened.
- chrischen 3y ago
  Allowing sideloading means allowing third party developers and large corporations to make their app force sideloading. If large companies like Uber, Facebook, et al require sideloading it will make it more acceptable for smaller companies and developers to do so. Pretty soon everyone would just say "sideload", including unscrupulous smaller developers. At that point since everyone is sideloading, no one would bat an eye to yet another sideloaded app. Not to mention why would anyone not choose to sideload to avoid the Apple tax?
judge2020 3y ago
But there's something to be said of getting a phone that specifically can't do certain things, whether that be for privacy (Facebook says: download the FB App Store to get Instagram!), security (evil maid attacks), or giving it to my great grandparent who just needs to use some social media apps and the phone app.
- kibwen 3y ago
  No, this doesn't enable evil maid attacks. If your evil maid has the means to unlock your phone in order to enable sideloading, then it's already game over, because with that same access they can get your passwords and your 2FA second factor. Please stop trying to suggest that evil maid attacks are a concern here.
  - bigfudge 3y ago
    One time opportunistic and potentially brief access to the phone is different to installing spyware (during that brief access) which reports all activity forever more or allows Mitm on your data.
- didntcheck 3y ago
  An APK is an APK. It's beholden to the same mandatory permissions system and has no extra abilities whether sideloaded or from the Play store. Sideloading != rooting
  - judge2020 3y ago
    Since about iOS 6, iOS exploits have started with a sandbox escape exploit, since the attack surface is so large with native code running on the device (only one since then, the Checkm8 exploit, used a USB exploit instead). Getting native code on a user's device for "free fortnite vbucks" is step one to silently jailbreaking phones and running adware/malware/spyware.
worrycue 3y ago
People are happy with the way things are. Why are you trying to mess with their things? If they want to use a phone that’s restricted to a walled garden App Store, that’s none of your business. Will you be taking responsibility if there are unforeseen consequences to side loading? There plenty of other phones out there that allow side loading. Go use one of those if it’s that important to you.
- wiseowise 3y ago
  And allowing sideloading will ruin their walled garden experience how? Last time I checked, you need to explicitly go and enable it on Android.
  - worrycue 3y ago
    What part of the phrase “unforeseen consequences” did you fail to understand? I really don’t get it. So this particular product doesn’t meet your wants. Big deal. They are millions of products that don’t mean my wants, you don’t see me crusading on the bloody internet asking for them all to be changed. I just don’t buy them.
    - wiseowise 3y ago
      > What part of the phrase “unforeseen consequences” did you fail to understand? Sorry, I didn’t see need to address paranoid fears. > I really don’t get it. So this particular product doesn’t meet your wants. Big deal. They are millions of products that don’t mean my wants, you don’t see me crusading on the bloody internet asking for them all to be changed. I just don’t buy them. I really don’t get why me wanting product improved mobilizes internet on a crusade against my valid complaints about absurd limitations of platform.
    - TheRealPomax 3y ago
      Except, of course, there aren't millions of phones. There are two. So yeah, complaining that there are features missing for a large part of the target audience is rather perfectly rational behaviour for a customer base.
2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
We’re over a decade into having smart phones. At this point, you’re going to have to weigh up what your priorities are and get the phone that does what you want. Not argue on the internet about the way things should be.
- wiseowise 3y ago
  I did and I will. Don’t make it sound that Android is “iOS without walled garden”. I want ecosystem without bloat, that doesn’t spy on me and where I’m not the product that’s not the state of Android at the moment (unless you’re willing to bother with custom ROMs). I’ve paid 1,5k for this thing and have every right to complain.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
    You are correct, you have the right to complain. But the companies involved show no signs of changing, and you keep handing them money and your complaints are toothless. And you won’t support a project that is more aligned with your goals.
    - wiseowise 3y ago
      > But the companies involved show no signs of changing, and you keep handing them money and your complaints are toothless. Are they? EU will force iOS into getting sideloading, like they forced them into adapting USB-C.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    > I’ve paid 1,5k for this thing and have every right to complain I agree that removing freedoms from the users is unethical and counterproductive. But at this point the only reasonable action is to give money to companies intentionally respecting your freedom. Sent from my Librem 5.
    - wiseowise 3y ago
      Disagree, what incentive does Apple have to listen for feedback from people who are not even in their ecosystem? Our household is pretty much Apple exclusively.

wwweston 3y ago

Honestly, if you think this is in any way a reasonable response to the layers of commentary above elaborating on why this isn't a zero-sum game and doesn't have to take anything from you, maybe someone should take your iPhone.

CamperBob2 3y ago

That Plato guy sure knew what he was talking about with the cave thing.

ChainOfFools 3y ago
Still relevant, except the cave is no longer an allegorical device but an actual device you mount on your eyes

wiseowise 3y ago

Get a feature phone.

didntcheck 3y ago

The exact reason being unable to do something you weren't going to do anyway, rendering the difference moot? You're not required to leave the garden because the wall has been removed. How is an extra option harming you?