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Like the GP said, this is a false dichotomy. Something as simple as accessible sideloading or a "let me do unsafe things" switch buried deep in the preferences
by wwweston 3y ago
Like the GP said, this is a false dichotomy. Something as simple as accessible sideloading or a "let me do unsafe things" switch buried deep in the preferences app can give people who want it greater control and let those who prefer the walled garden keep the benefits.
- greggh 3y agoGet a different phone then. Don't try to take the exact reason some of us bought an iPhone away from us.
- TheRealPomax 3y agoAh yes, "instead of getting a feature added for free that I won't need, and the presence of which would not impact me or anyone like me in any way, shape, or form, how about everyone just buys another $1500 phone?" Maybe because getting a feature added for free that you won't need, and the presence of which would not impact you or anyone like you in any way, shape, or form, won't impact you or anyone like you in any way, shape, or form. Just go "I'd never need that, but power to you if Apple ever adds it. Which we can be pretty sure of they won't". Don't hate on folks for wanting things that you don't want, but also won't affect your life in any way if they got it.
- rad_gruchalski 3y ago> Maybe because getting a feature added for free that you won't need, and the presence of which would not impact you or anyone like you in any way, shape, or form, won't impact you or anyone like you in any way, shape, or form. How do you know that allowing sideloading does’t effectively mean opening a bunch of backdoors on the device? What if the the tight grip over the hardware + software is the best way to ensure that millions of users stay reasonably safe? Isn’t this basically a way to prevent supply chain attacks? I don’t know… do you know? How can you say such things with so much confidence?
- kibwen 3y ago> How do you know that allowing sideloading does’t effectively mean opening a bunch of backdoors on the device? Because this is a technical forum, and we all know that this isn't how any of this works.
- khazhoux 3y agoIt is entirely plausible that iOS cannot remove all the security restrictions that would be necessary for a useful sideloading, without exposing attack vectors.
- dubyah 3y agoThere's an astounding amount of FUD against any prospect of side loading apps for such a supposedly technically oriented community here.
- wruza 3y agoSideloading means that apps can (and will) migrate from appstore to other store with relaxed taxes, privacy and security, and all users will face app serp hijacking and permission extortion. Not only those who want their android experience on iphone for some bizarre reason.
- rad_gruchalski 3y agoI would love to hear some ideas about how it could be implemented without jeopardizing the security. A technical analysis, without words like "probably", "maybe". I'm fairly technical and ready to be enlightened.
- chrischen 3y agoAllowing sideloading means allowing third party developers and large corporations to make their app force sideloading. If large companies like Uber, Facebook, et al require sideloading it will make it more acceptable for smaller companies and developers to do so. Pretty soon everyone would just say "sideload", including unscrupulous smaller developers. At that point since everyone is sideloading, no one would bat an eye to yet another sideloaded app. Not to mention why would anyone not choose to sideload to avoid the Apple tax?
- judge2020 3y agoBut there's something to be said of getting a phone that specifically can't do certain things, whether that be for privacy (Facebook says: download the FB App Store to get Instagram!), security (evil maid attacks), or giving it to my great grandparent who just needs to use some social media apps and the phone app.
- kibwen 3y agoNo, this doesn't enable evil maid attacks. If your evil maid has the means to unlock your phone in order to enable sideloading, then it's already game over, because with that same access they can get your passwords and your 2FA second factor. Please stop trying to suggest that evil maid attacks are a concern here.
- bigfudge 3y agoOne time opportunistic and potentially brief access to the phone is different to installing spyware (during that brief access) which reports all activity forever more or allows Mitm on your data.
- didntcheck 3y agoAn APK is an APK. It's beholden to the same mandatory permissions system and has no extra abilities whether sideloaded or from the Play store. Sideloading != rooting
- judge2020 3y agoSince about iOS 6, iOS exploits have started with a sandbox escape exploit, since the attack surface is so large with native code running on the device (only one since then, the Checkm8 exploit, used a USB exploit instead). Getting native code on a user's device for "free fortnite vbucks" is step one to silently jailbreaking phones and running adware/malware/spyware.
- worrycue 3y agoPeople are happy with the way things are. Why are you trying to mess with their things? If they want to use a phone that’s restricted to a walled garden App Store, that’s none of your business. Will you be taking responsibility if there are unforeseen consequences to side loading? There plenty of other phones out there that allow side loading. Go use one of those if it’s that important to you.
- wiseowise 3y agoAnd allowing sideloading will ruin their walled garden experience how? Last time I checked, you need to explicitly go and enable it on Android.
- worrycue 3y agoWhat part of the phrase “unforeseen consequences” did you fail to understand? I really don’t get it. So this particular product doesn’t meet your wants. Big deal. They are millions of products that don’t mean my wants, you don’t see me crusading on the bloody internet asking for them all to be changed. I just don’t buy them.
- wiseowise 3y ago> What part of the phrase “unforeseen consequences” did you fail to understand? Sorry, I didn’t see need to address paranoid fears. > I really don’t get it. So this particular product doesn’t meet your wants. Big deal. They are millions of products that don’t mean my wants, you don’t see me crusading on the bloody internet asking for them all to be changed. I just don’t buy them. I really don’t get why me wanting product improved mobilizes internet on a crusade against my valid complaints about absurd limitations of platform.
- TheRealPomax 3y agoExcept, of course, there aren't millions of phones. There are two. So yeah, complaining that there are features missing for a large part of the target audience is rather perfectly rational behaviour for a customer base.
- 2muchcoffeeman 3y agoWe’re over a decade into having smart phones. At this point, you’re going to have to weigh up what your priorities are and get the phone that does what you want. Not argue on the internet about the way things should be.
- wiseowise 3y agoI did and I will. Don’t make it sound that Android is “iOS without walled garden”. I want ecosystem without bloat, that doesn’t spy on me and where I’m not the product that’s not the state of Android at the moment (unless you’re willing to bother with custom ROMs). I’ve paid 1,5k for this thing and have every right to complain.
- 2muchcoffeeman 3y agoYou are correct, you have the right to complain. But the companies involved show no signs of changing, and you keep handing them money and your complaints are toothless. And you won’t support a project that is more aligned with your goals.
- wiseowise 3y ago> But the companies involved show no signs of changing, and you keep handing them money and your complaints are toothless. Are they? EU will force iOS into getting sideloading, like they forced them into adapting USB-C.
- fsflover 3y ago> I’ve paid 1,5k for this thing and have every right to complain I agree that removing freedoms from the users is unethical and counterproductive. But at this point the only reasonable action is to give money to companies intentionally respecting your freedom. Sent from my Librem 5.
- wiseowise 3y agoDisagree, what incentive does Apple have to listen for feedback from people who are not even in their ecosystem? Our household is pretty much Apple exclusively.
- wwweston 3y agoHonestly, if you think this is in any way a reasonable response to the layers of commentary above elaborating on why this isn't a zero-sum game and doesn't have to take anything from you, maybe someone should take your iPhone.
- CamperBob2 3y agoThat Plato guy sure knew what he was talking about with the cave thing.
- ChainOfFools 3y agoStill relevant, except the cave is no longer an allegorical device but an actual device you mount on your eyes
- wiseowise 3y agoGet a feature phone.
- didntcheck 3y agoThe exact reason being unable to do something you weren't going to do anyway, rendering the difference moot? You're not required to leave the garden because the wall has been removed. How is an extra option harming you?
- Jetrel 3y ago[flagged]
- detaro 3y ago> If such a switch exists, EVERYTHING will use it. Absolutely everything. How do you explain that this hasn't happened on Android?
- rrdharan 3y agoIt has.
- detaro 3y agoNo it hasn't. Play store is still utterly dominant, and very very very few apps are only available through other channels (I couldn't name any, but there probably are some open-source ones on F-Droid that didn't want to bother with the Google processes, and maybe some vendor has some exclusive apps on their store?). Side-loading is very much a niche thing.
- rrdharan 3y agohttps://www.tomsguide.com/news/hackers-have-developed-a-clever-new-way-to-add-malware-to-android-apps https://www.tomsguide.com/news/hackers-have-developed-a-clev... https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2019/07/be-careful-about-sideloading-popular-android-apps-unless-you-like-malware/ https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2019/07/be-careful-about-sidel... Yes it’s niche but it can be, and is, abused as a vector for this kind of stuff…
- bandrami 3y agoThere used to be a significant enterprise "Bespoke iOS app for inventory management/POS" market but I think that pretty much all migrated to Android in the past few years.
- rad_gruchalski 3y agoThere is enough malware for stock Android. Here’s an example, a couple of months old: Android malware infiltrates 60 Google Play apps with 100M installs: https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/android-malware-infiltrates-60-google-play-apps-with-100m-installs/amp/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/android-malwa...
- numpad0 3y agoIMO, there isn't much importance to sideloading at personal levels. It's necessary for open and democratic society. I'm not realistically auditing the whole Debian package repository, and that makes it almost indistinguishable from App Store walled garden if viewed in a strictly personal scope, despite the reality being almost a polar opposite.
- AnonHP 3y ago> IMO, there isn't much importance to sideloading at personal levels. As someone who has jailbroken iOS devices in the distant past, the conveniences and user interactions supported by Activator and SBSettings more than a decade ago are still not on iOS yet (and will likely never be). I believe there is a lot of value to have sideloading while also recognizing that there could be a higher chance of malware and the lost.
- smohare 3y ago[dead]
- rodgerd 3y agoWhy are you so desperate to break the iPhone experience? Because you can have that. You can have a Pine phone, you can have an Android device, you can have Sailfin. Why are you unhappy with all the choices for phones that provide everything you say you want?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- wwweston 3y agoWhat about any suggestion made so far "breaks" the iOS experience for those who are satisfied with it the way it is?
- wiseowise 3y agoThat’s different™.
- justinclift 3y agoIsn't it the other way around? Allowing side loading on iOS doesn't seem like it would impact anyone that doesn't side load. (?)
- smiley1437 3y agoAllowing sideloading increases the potential for exploits in IOS to be found, that could then exploit other IOS users. If I had a well designed bank vault I still wouldn't want would-be burglars unrestricted access to probe the lock design which could then be used to exploit other vaults of the same design. In this model, I would put a cage or bars or say, a walled garden around the lock mechanism to prevent unwanted hacking or characterization.
- justinclift 3y agoAhhh. Sounds like it's mostly fear of potential loss rather than something easy to pin down and fix. Yeah, I'm not aware of any good way to counter that kind of fear unless Apple wants to do so. Unfortunately, countering that fear is 100% the opposite of what Apple want, so they're likely going to try and amplify it to the maximum extent instead.
- fingerlocks 3y agoThis already exists. It’s called a developer account. You can side load all day long or do scary unsafe things like mmap r^x
- happymellon 3y agoI'm torn on this, on the one hand I would love to be able to hack on iPhone hardware. However, we have Epic. No matter how deep the option is buried, they will try to get people to enable it so they can install their games without going through the app store. I wish I could agree with you, but the bad actors here are large corporations who are incentivised to make even those who want to be safe, unsafe.
- wiseowise 3y agoYour point being is? “Will someone think of a children?!”
- 9dev 3y agoIt’s that some companies will force most people into enabling sideloading to turn the phone into something useful, until the field is level again - effectively getting rid of the walled garden. If every app you need requires sideloading; you’re going to enable it or be left in the dark.
- gambiting 3y agoAnd yet we don't see that happening on Android at all, where companies have literally all incentive to convince people to sideload their apps instead of getting them from the Play store. And yet....it just doesn't happen. There is literally zero reason to believe that this would happen on iOS either. Epic might want to try it with Fortnite because of its popularity, but anything else? No, far too much hassle and you know 99% of users wouldn't bother.
- inferiorhuman 3y agoGoogle is more permissive in their app store (e.g. with tracking users or accepting out of band payments), Google developer accounts are a one time payment, etc., etc. Overall there's less incentive to push a separate app store on Android than there is on iOS.
- izacus 3y agoSteam Deck is an amazing demonstration on how both can be done at once in a single device.
- smohare 3y ago[dead]