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Obligatory Mark Twain on this, in case you or others haven't read his essay on learning German: "observe how far that verb is from the reader's base of operati

Obligatory Mark Twain on this, in case you or others haven't read his essay on learning German: "observe how far that verb is from the reader's base of operations; well, in a German newspaper they put their verb away over on the next page; and I have heard that sometimes after stringing along the exciting preliminaries and parentheses for a column or two, they get in a hurry and have to go to press without getting to the verb at all. Of course, then, the reader is left in a very exhausted and ignorant state." https://faculty.georgetown.edu/jod/texts/twain.german.html https://faculty.georgetown.edu/jod/texts/twain.german.html

gen220 3y ago
Wow, this is such an incredible take-down, thank you for sharing! German is one of those languages where the spoken and written languages are incredibly distinct. I've felt that the written language requires massive intellect to pull apart as a non-native speaker, in comparison to the spoken language (once you adjust for pronunciation, etc.). The formalities of proper written German are inscrutable, this does a great job of laying the most painful aspects out.
- tharkun__ 3y ago
  It's funny to see this actually. I never thought about it the way I read it from Mark Twain. Neither had I ever thought about English being a hard language because it has no regularity and every second word is an exception in how to pronounce it. But French eludes me. Written German of the times of Mark Twain is also quite different from today's. Of course the actual context dictates formality as well. Personally I can't understand Shakespeare era English nor German. It's just gibberish to me. With lots of concentration maybe but not just reading or listening to it. Also, the whole Dative and Genetive thing is not just a formality/written vs spoken thing but more a generational and societal one. Using Dative for things where the rules actually prescribe Genetive is a class thing. Working class usually means everything is just Dative. And if you're not good at learning languages. Even as a German native speaker. If you are trying to sound high society and snobbish you'll use a lot of Genetive in the proper way. Or if you simply learned it that way and it became second nature to do it correctly. A lot has changed that way since Twain.
  - aleph_minus_one 3y ago
    > Written German of the times of Mark Twain is also quite different from today's. The German language mutated less over the centuries than the English language. An educated native German speaker should be able to mostly understand the "Nibelungenlied" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelungenlied https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelungenlied), a text written down in the mid 13th century, which is thus nearly 800 years old.
    - tharkun__ 3y ago
      -Ish I guess :) Uns ist in alten mæren wunders vil geseit von helden lobebæren, von grôzer arebeit, von freuden, hôchgezîten, von weinen und von klagen, von küener recken strîten muget ír nu wunder hœren sagen A "mær" (as Maer - imagine an a umlaut) does exist still but the word is so antiquated that I don't expect kids these days to know it. "wunders"? No idea. Something about "wonder"? "vil" sure, viel (a lot). "geseit". No idea. "seit" is that "sein" (to be)? Doesn't fit the rest of the sentence I guess. Definitely need to look that up. "lobebæren". No damn idea whatsoever. Now "grôzer arebeit", sure that's "grosser Arbeit" but when I look at the "translation to German" (from the middle high German the original apparently is written in) it says it's "groesse Muehsahl". Close enough of course. Kind of like translating French word for word into German. It sort of makes sense but is just hopelessly old and weirdly structured but you can understand a lot of it. But it requires lots of brain power. Nothing that I can do while listening/talking, only while reading. "hôchgezîten": Hochzeiten? Like weddings? Makes no sense. Maybe "Hochzeiten" as in 'high times'? Funnily same word different pronunciation depending on context :) "recken" very old word. Again something kids these days probably have no idea about. I do but it's been a while I learned it all. "strîten" means streiten I guess which makes sense given the Recken, but without knowing what those are, not sure. "muget" Sounds like "muggle" but maybe "moeget"? So "moegte ihr". "nu wunder hœren sagen": "jetzt wunder hoeren sagen"? But what does that mean? Some of this may not be a problem of "Shakespeare's times" vs. today but also "poem language" vs. "regular people language". I have trouble with poems. I'd write it as this basically: Uns ist in alten Maeren viel Wunder <no idea what geseit is> von Helden <somethingwhatever>, von grosser Arbeit von Freuden, Hochzeiten, von Weinen und von Klagen, von kuehner Recken streiten moeget ihr Wunder hoeren sagen Now even after looking up the two missing words, geseit is gesagt (to say) and lobebaeren just doesn't exist but was somehow translated to something I still would not be able to understand this if it was just read to me. I have to read it myself and actively think about it. On the other hand my sibling posts meandering whole paragraph sentence is very easily understandable. On the other hand, here's a recipe for strengthening a wooden shield with leather in old English: take lether that ys half tannyd and drye hym and shave the flesshe syd and take glwu wt water and set yt over the fyere and melte yt wt water and then al hote ly yt a pone the leder on the flesshe syde and strawe ther on the powder of glasce bete yn a brasene morter ... I'll stop there so we stay within the same 4 lines. But I had a much easier time reading that than the Niebelungenlied. And yes, my mother tongue is German :) take leather that is half tanned and dry him and shave the flesh side and take glue with water and set it over the fire and melt it with water and then while hot lie it upon the leather on the flesh side and strew thereon the powder of glass beaten in a <brasene I had to look up but also makes sense: brass-en> mortar If anything, except for spelling mistakes like syd vs. syde, I think that's actually more consistent than modern English. I.e. I'd say syd for side is perfect. A y by itself makes the "why" sound. So syd is exactly how I'd write it if I was told to write it just from hearing the word once and knowing the alphabet. Why does it need an e at the end and why would we nowadays write it as side but not pronounce the e (like French sort of, just leave out the last 1-3 letters when pronouncing a word).
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  Honestly, in my experience as a native German speaker spoken and written German are more similar to each other than spoken and written English. Just speak German as you would write it might sound a little bit more formal than is usual, but it won't cause you any trouble to err a little bit on the "too formal" side. > I've felt that the written language requires massive intellect to pull apart as a non-native speaker, in comparison to the spoken language (once you adjust for pronunciation, etc.). I rather think that the people who you spoke with used a simpler structure of sentences than is common in educated circles because you would otherwise have difficulties understanding them. You should actually rather feel spoiled: in older German texts, it can actually easily happen that a whole paragraph consists of one single sentence (this rarely occurs in contemporary texts). Just to give one single arbitrary example: "Wenn es die Verwirklichung von Urträumen ist, fliegen zu können und mit den Fischen zu reisen, sich unter den Leibern von Bergriesen durchzubohren, mit göttlichen Geschwindigkeiten Botschaften zu senden, das Unsichtbare und Ferne zu sehen und sprechen zu hören, Tote sprechen zu hören, sich in wundertätigen Genesungsschlaf versenken zu lassen, mit lebenden Augen erblicken zu können, wie man zwanzig Jahre nach seinem Tode aussehen wird, in flimmernden Nächten tausend Dinge über und unter dieser Welt zu wissen, die früher niemand gewußt hat, wenn Licht, Wärme, Kraft, Genuß, Bequemlichkeit Urträume der Menschheit sind, – dann ist die heutige Forschung nicht nur Wissenschaft, sondern ein Zauber, eine Zeremonie von höchster Herzens- und Hirnkraft, vor der Gott eine Falte seines Mantels nach der anderen öffnet, eine Religion, deren Dogmatik von der harten, mutigen, beweglichen, messerkühlen und -scharfen Denklehre der Mathematik durchdrungen und getragen wird." (https://www.projekt-gutenberg.org/musil/mannohne/chap011.html https://www.projekt-gutenberg.org/musil/mannohne/chap011.htm...) And no, I have no difficulties understanding this sentence.
  - myth2018 3y ago
    > And no, I have no difficulties understanding this sentence. This is what calls my attention most. During your language acquisition process, your brains may develop some specialized connections to handle such sentences. In Portuguese (and probably in most languages) it is possible to build such monstrosities -- and there are concrete examples which I won't recall now. However, one does that for literaly reasons, to sound overly sophisticated or intentionally difficult etc. It's definitely not a natural way to write, and it probably never happens spontaneously on spoken language. I can, very sporadically, grasp such long sentences in my language at the first pass, but it's always difficult and, even then, I usually reread just to make sure I really understood it.
JBiserkov 3y ago
Q: Why does past participle in German begin with "ge-"? A: To give the speaker some time to remember what verb they had in mind 90 seconds ago when they started the sentence.
- ElMocambo_x4 3y ago
  Why would the "normal" way of thinking/saying things, involve putting the verb, then the object, and not the other way around ? Pretty much like arguing that the normal way of writing is from left to right. Good demonstration of how brains are wired differently.
myth2018 3y ago
Haha thanks for bringing this quote. That reminds me of a german friend listening to an announcement in a train station. He raised his hand signing he couldn't be disturbed and seemed to hold his breath during that fairly long speech. And at the end he told me "this language is so messed up, I had to listen it all up to the end to figure out whether we should wait some more minutes or leave and take a bus".
- tharkun__ 3y ago
  Like "Ladies and Gentlemen. Train XYZ 123 from Hamburg Hauptbahnhof to Hamburg Harburg, originally arriving on track 12. This train is going to be late by 3 hours. Please take bus 112 instead"? And yes this is how they would say it, just literally translated to English. Seriously, which part here is language related vs. just structuring your announcements in a way where all information you need is presented in the way it makes sense? If you don't announce which train this is about first, then lots of people will have to listen to lots of announcements even though they're not meant for them. If you know your train number you can stop listening at "123". If you just know your destination and the trains origin/where you are you can stop listening right there etc.
  - FearNotDaniel 3y ago
    My take on this kind of announcement structure, independent of language: the specifics (e.g. train/flight number) should be repeated at the beginning and end of the message. Why? Because people listen differently, also depending on the context and how many low-importance messages are being broadcast into the environment. When I'm at a station/airport and there is an announcement every two minutes of something mundane, e.g. which platform or gate is the next departure, I filter them all out, because I've already looked up that information on the screens or on my phone. Only when I subconsciously register something like 'cancelled' or 'changed platforms' or 'severe delay' do I start listening to hear if it is pertinent to me or not. That's when it's useful for the announcer to reiterate which service they are talking about, for those who only started paying attention half way through the message.
  - myth2018 3y ago
bojo 3y ago
Complete Japanese, SOV language, tangent: It's interesting watching real time thinking as the speaker navigates the final conjugation they intend to finish the sentence with. In a way I've always seen this as two things, 1) it gives the speaker time to think (along with their common filler words), and b) an option to change not only the tense of their sentence let alone compound it with more words, but the level of formality they wish to use on the fly that can also be tuned as they reach the end.

gen220 3y ago

Wow, this is such an incredible take-down, thank you for sharing! German is one of those languages where the spoken and written languages are incredibly distinct. I've felt that the written language requires massive intellect to pull apart as a non-native speaker, in comparison to the spoken language (once you adjust for pronunciation, etc.). The formalities of proper written German are inscrutable, this does a great job of laying the most painful aspects out.

tharkun__ 3y ago
It's funny to see this actually. I never thought about it the way I read it from Mark Twain. Neither had I ever thought about English being a hard language because it has no regularity and every second word is an exception in how to pronounce it. But French eludes me. Written German of the times of Mark Twain is also quite different from today's. Of course the actual context dictates formality as well. Personally I can't understand Shakespeare era English nor German. It's just gibberish to me. With lots of concentration maybe but not just reading or listening to it. Also, the whole Dative and Genetive thing is not just a formality/written vs spoken thing but more a generational and societal one. Using Dative for things where the rules actually prescribe Genetive is a class thing. Working class usually means everything is just Dative. And if you're not good at learning languages. Even as a German native speaker. If you are trying to sound high society and snobbish you'll use a lot of Genetive in the proper way. Or if you simply learned it that way and it became second nature to do it correctly. A lot has changed that way since Twain.
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  > Written German of the times of Mark Twain is also quite different from today's. The German language mutated less over the centuries than the English language. An educated native German speaker should be able to mostly understand the "Nibelungenlied" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelungenlied https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelungenlied), a text written down in the mid 13th century, which is thus nearly 800 years old.
  - tharkun__ 3y ago
    -Ish I guess :) Uns ist in alten mæren wunders vil geseit von helden lobebæren, von grôzer arebeit, von freuden, hôchgezîten, von weinen und von klagen, von küener recken strîten muget ír nu wunder hœren sagen A "mær" (as Maer - imagine an a umlaut) does exist still but the word is so antiquated that I don't expect kids these days to know it. "wunders"? No idea. Something about "wonder"? "vil" sure, viel (a lot). "geseit". No idea. "seit" is that "sein" (to be)? Doesn't fit the rest of the sentence I guess. Definitely need to look that up. "lobebæren". No damn idea whatsoever. Now "grôzer arebeit", sure that's "grosser Arbeit" but when I look at the "translation to German" (from the middle high German the original apparently is written in) it says it's "groesse Muehsahl". Close enough of course. Kind of like translating French word for word into German. It sort of makes sense but is just hopelessly old and weirdly structured but you can understand a lot of it. But it requires lots of brain power. Nothing that I can do while listening/talking, only while reading. "hôchgezîten": Hochzeiten? Like weddings? Makes no sense. Maybe "Hochzeiten" as in 'high times'? Funnily same word different pronunciation depending on context :) "recken" very old word. Again something kids these days probably have no idea about. I do but it's been a while I learned it all. "strîten" means streiten I guess which makes sense given the Recken, but without knowing what those are, not sure. "muget" Sounds like "muggle" but maybe "moeget"? So "moegte ihr". "nu wunder hœren sagen": "jetzt wunder hoeren sagen"? But what does that mean? Some of this may not be a problem of "Shakespeare's times" vs. today but also "poem language" vs. "regular people language". I have trouble with poems. I'd write it as this basically: Uns ist in alten Maeren viel Wunder <no idea what geseit is> von Helden <somethingwhatever>, von grosser Arbeit von Freuden, Hochzeiten, von Weinen und von Klagen, von kuehner Recken streiten moeget ihr Wunder hoeren sagen Now even after looking up the two missing words, geseit is gesagt (to say) and lobebaeren just doesn't exist but was somehow translated to something I still would not be able to understand this if it was just read to me. I have to read it myself and actively think about it. On the other hand my sibling posts meandering whole paragraph sentence is very easily understandable. On the other hand, here's a recipe for strengthening a wooden shield with leather in old English: take lether that ys half tannyd and drye hym and shave the flesshe syd and take glwu wt water and set yt over the fyere and melte yt wt water and then al hote ly yt a pone the leder on the flesshe syde and strawe ther on the powder of glasce bete yn a brasene morter ... I'll stop there so we stay within the same 4 lines. But I had a much easier time reading that than the Niebelungenlied. And yes, my mother tongue is German :) take leather that is half tanned and dry him and shave the flesh side and take glue with water and set it over the fire and melt it with water and then while hot lie it upon the leather on the flesh side and strew thereon the powder of glass beaten in a <brasene I had to look up but also makes sense: brass-en> mortar If anything, except for spelling mistakes like syd vs. syde, I think that's actually more consistent than modern English. I.e. I'd say syd for side is perfect. A y by itself makes the "why" sound. So syd is exactly how I'd write it if I was told to write it just from hearing the word once and knowing the alphabet. Why does it need an e at the end and why would we nowadays write it as side but not pronounce the e (like French sort of, just leave out the last 1-3 letters when pronouncing a word).
aleph_minus_one 3y ago
Honestly, in my experience as a native German speaker spoken and written German are more similar to each other than spoken and written English. Just speak German as you would write it might sound a little bit more formal than is usual, but it won't cause you any trouble to err a little bit on the "too formal" side. > I've felt that the written language requires massive intellect to pull apart as a non-native speaker, in comparison to the spoken language (once you adjust for pronunciation, etc.). I rather think that the people who you spoke with used a simpler structure of sentences than is common in educated circles because you would otherwise have difficulties understanding them. You should actually rather feel spoiled: in older German texts, it can actually easily happen that a whole paragraph consists of one single sentence (this rarely occurs in contemporary texts). Just to give one single arbitrary example: "Wenn es die Verwirklichung von Urträumen ist, fliegen zu können und mit den Fischen zu reisen, sich unter den Leibern von Bergriesen durchzubohren, mit göttlichen Geschwindigkeiten Botschaften zu senden, das Unsichtbare und Ferne zu sehen und sprechen zu hören, Tote sprechen zu hören, sich in wundertätigen Genesungsschlaf versenken zu lassen, mit lebenden Augen erblicken zu können, wie man zwanzig Jahre nach seinem Tode aussehen wird, in flimmernden Nächten tausend Dinge über und unter dieser Welt zu wissen, die früher niemand gewußt hat, wenn Licht, Wärme, Kraft, Genuß, Bequemlichkeit Urträume der Menschheit sind, – dann ist die heutige Forschung nicht nur Wissenschaft, sondern ein Zauber, eine Zeremonie von höchster Herzens- und Hirnkraft, vor der Gott eine Falte seines Mantels nach der anderen öffnet, eine Religion, deren Dogmatik von der harten, mutigen, beweglichen, messerkühlen und -scharfen Denklehre der Mathematik durchdrungen und getragen wird." (https://www.projekt-gutenberg.org/musil/mannohne/chap011.html https://www.projekt-gutenberg.org/musil/mannohne/chap011.htm...) And no, I have no difficulties understanding this sentence.
- myth2018 3y ago
  > And no, I have no difficulties understanding this sentence. This is what calls my attention most. During your language acquisition process, your brains may develop some specialized connections to handle such sentences. In Portuguese (and probably in most languages) it is possible to build such monstrosities -- and there are concrete examples which I won't recall now. However, one does that for literaly reasons, to sound overly sophisticated or intentionally difficult etc. It's definitely not a natural way to write, and it probably never happens spontaneously on spoken language. I can, very sporadically, grasp such long sentences in my language at the first pass, but it's always difficult and, even then, I usually reread just to make sure I really understood it.

JBiserkov 3y ago

Q: Why does past participle in German begin with "ge-"? A: To give the speaker some time to remember what verb they had in mind 90 seconds ago when they started the sentence.

ElMocambo_x4 3y ago
Why would the "normal" way of thinking/saying things, involve putting the verb, then the object, and not the other way around ? Pretty much like arguing that the normal way of writing is from left to right. Good demonstration of how brains are wired differently.

myth2018 3y ago

Haha thanks for bringing this quote. That reminds me of a german friend listening to an announcement in a train station. He raised his hand signing he couldn't be disturbed and seemed to hold his breath during that fairly long speech. And at the end he told me "this language is so messed up, I had to listen it all up to the end to figure out whether we should wait some more minutes or leave and take a bus".

tharkun__ 3y ago
Like "Ladies and Gentlemen. Train XYZ 123 from Hamburg Hauptbahnhof to Hamburg Harburg, originally arriving on track 12. This train is going to be late by 3 hours. Please take bus 112 instead"? And yes this is how they would say it, just literally translated to English. Seriously, which part here is language related vs. just structuring your announcements in a way where all information you need is presented in the way it makes sense? If you don't announce which train this is about first, then lots of people will have to listen to lots of announcements even though they're not meant for them. If you know your train number you can stop listening at "123". If you just know your destination and the trains origin/where you are you can stop listening right there etc.
- FearNotDaniel 3y ago
  My take on this kind of announcement structure, independent of language: the specifics (e.g. train/flight number) should be repeated at the beginning and end of the message. Why? Because people listen differently, also depending on the context and how many low-importance messages are being broadcast into the environment. When I'm at a station/airport and there is an announcement every two minutes of something mundane, e.g. which platform or gate is the next departure, I filter them all out, because I've already looked up that information on the screens or on my phone. Only when I subconsciously register something like 'cancelled' or 'changed platforms' or 'severe delay' do I start listening to hear if it is pertinent to me or not. That's when it's useful for the announcer to reiterate which service they are talking about, for those who only started paying attention half way through the message.
- myth2018 3y ago

bojo 3y ago

Complete Japanese, SOV language, tangent: It's interesting watching real time thinking as the speaker navigates the final conjugation they intend to finish the sentence with. In a way I've always seen this as two things, 1) it gives the speaker time to think (along with their common filler words), and b) an option to change not only the tense of their sentence let alone compound it with more words, but the level of formality they wish to use on the fly that can also be tuned as they reach the end.