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People seem to forget the history of cellular. Apple refused to let carriers bloat up phones with uninstallable shovelware that had been on every phone before t

People seem to forget the history of cellular. Apple refused to let carriers bloat up phones with uninstallable shovelware that had been on every phone before them, and they only relented because it represented a market opportunity too big to ignore. It takes something the size of a corporation to fend off other corporations. And it’s not as if many have not tried and failed to break the phone OS duopoly; the walled garden aspect of iOS is a fairly small obstacle.

8ytecoder 3y ago
Apple Pay had a similar uphill battle. So were OS releases - carriers would blame it on “network compatibility testing”. Apple fought them at every turn. If carriers had their way, iPhones would be irrelevant after 2 years because Apple can’t update the OS. Similarly if side loading was allowed, companies that skirt the rules would simply list them outside and incentivise people to use that version. Once they have enough traction they’ll kill the App Store version. Although Android apps surviving so far would be a counterpoint. (I personally prefer it and want side loading. I’m just saying I understand the need for the wall).
wizzwizz4 3y ago
> It takes something the size of a corporation to fend off other corporations. Wouldn't it be great if we had one of those? An organisation powerful enough to boss companies around, making it so companies didn't have to race-to-the-bottom to compete with each other, and we'd get to tell it what to do? The logistics might be a bit hard, though. We'd have to have some kind of large-scale organised vote, probably on a schedule of some kind. That might take a lot of resources to arrange, so either a lot of people would have to volunteer to work on it, or it would have to acquire money through some mechanism… We could vote on that, too. Hmm. There are actually quite a lot of things we'd have to vote for, thinking about it. Including which things to vote for! Most people wouldn't have time for all that, leaving the people who would as the ones calling the shots. So we'd need some mechanism for people to delegate their vote to somebody else: a representative of some kind. And those representatives could form groups – councils, perhaps? – to discuss and vote on matters relevant to the people they represent. Once we've got all that set up, though, it should be easy enough to get uninstallable bloatware banned from computation devices. Right?
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  Coulda, shoulda, woulda. We can’t even get the deluge of spam effectively addressed by the government, and that is absolutely despised across the aisle. The same government that has enabled the concentration of wireless carriers is now expected to effectively prevent them from doing something?
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    So far, resigning ourselves to failure has created capitalist horrors on all sides of the aisle. Everyone but Big Tech hates Big Tech. Utilizing our government to effectively curb abusive market practices is overall a good idea. It's how we scare predatory markets like cryptocurrency into submission. It's been harder to do with domestic inventions like the NYSE or the iPhone, but its increasingly relevant as the rest of the world cries foul. Whatever the case is, masturbating shareholders for infinite profit is not how you progress common interests.
- Gigachad 3y ago
  Because governments are completely incapable of regulating minute details like how tracking IDs on phones should work. The best part of the current system is your choice of phone isn't tied to how education is funded or what the immigration rate should be. You can make micro votes on every product you buy to get what suites you best.
  - wizzwizz4 3y ago
    They are capable of empowering other bodies. The UK has the concept of "secondary legislation". > You can make micro votes on every product you buy to get what suites you best. Iff you are wealthy enough, and the market hasn't race-to-the-bottom'd that option away. No amount of "vote with you wallet" can get rid of leaded petrol, for example.
retrocryptid 3y ago
[Citation needed] What bloatware was verizon installing on my Nokia 3390?
- worrycue 3y ago
  The only thing saving your 3390 from irremovable bloatware is its weak hardware. If bloatware could be install it would be as Nokia like most phone makers will try to curry favour with the carriers to get them to promote their phones. Apple is probably the only phone maker who didn’t do that. They didn’t need to. Heck it was the other way around - carriers wanted to sell iPhones so they can get an edge over / won’t fall behind their competitors. If carriers have a problem with Apple’s refusal of their demands, they could go screw themselves. Their loss.
  - retrocryptid 3y ago
    Okay. What bloatware did Verizon put on my Treo? Also. You didn't answer the question. What bloatware did Verizon put on my Nokia 3390?
    - worrycue 3y ago
      I answered your question, they can't put bloatware on your 3390 because its hardware like other phones of that era is too weak to support any.
      - retrocryptid 3y ago
        But your assertion was every phone before the iPhone had bloatware. The Nokia 3390 was a phone. Please tell me what bloatware was on the 3390.
    - bobthepanda 3y ago
      Back in the day if I wanted a non-stock ringtone, you would have to purchase it through Verizon, it would’ve likely cost $3-5. iTunes was comparatively a lot cheaper, and also basically allowed any arbitrary mp3 to be used as a ringtone. Verizon also used to run their own app stores full of games and low quality music; the fact that it was free or $.99 on Apple’s stores was generally a net price decrease.
worrycue 3y ago
Irremovable bloatware was a big reason I stuck with Apple. I hate that crap so much - so much of it is poorly written trash that does nothing but advertise the carrier’s other services every freaking day for the device’s life span.
MC68328 3y ago
My Treo didn't have shovelware, my Nokia didn't have shovelware, and my BlackBerry didn't have shovelware. Yet, strangely enough, I can't uninstall Safari from any of my iPhones and replace it with Firefox.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  Could you sideload on those either? (I only ever used flip phones before the iPhone. Those were filled with VZW stores for ringtones and $5+ versions of Tetris.)
  - cesarb 3y ago
    > > My Treo didn't have shovelware, [...] > Could you sideload on those either? AFAIK, the Treo was just a Palm PDA with phone functionality. IIRC, what you call "sideloading" was the only way to install applications on Palm PDAs (including the Treo).
matwood 3y ago
The carriers had an iron grip on the phones and stores. People were cheering when Apple said the App Store only took a 30% cut. The reason the iPhone started on a smaller regional carrier (Cingular, but then purchased by ATT) was because they were the only ones willing to let Apple do Apple and stay hands off. Once the iPhone got traction it forced the others to follow suit. Of course times have changed, but people are quick to forget what a mess cellular used to be in the US.

8ytecoder 3y ago

Apple Pay had a similar uphill battle. So were OS releases - carriers would blame it on “network compatibility testing”. Apple fought them at every turn. If carriers had their way, iPhones would be irrelevant after 2 years because Apple can’t update the OS. Similarly if side loading was allowed, companies that skirt the rules would simply list them outside and incentivise people to use that version. Once they have enough traction they’ll kill the App Store version. Although Android apps surviving so far would be a counterpoint. (I personally prefer it and want side loading. I’m just saying I understand the need for the wall).

wizzwizz4 3y ago

> It takes something the size of a corporation to fend off other corporations. Wouldn't it be great if we had one of those? An organisation powerful enough to boss companies around, making it so companies didn't have to race-to-the-bottom to compete with each other, and we'd get to tell it what to do? The logistics might be a bit hard, though. We'd have to have some kind of large-scale organised vote, probably on a schedule of some kind. That might take a lot of resources to arrange, so either a lot of people would have to volunteer to work on it, or it would have to acquire money through some mechanism… We could vote on that, too. Hmm. There are actually quite a lot of things we'd have to vote for, thinking about it. Including which things to vote for! Most people wouldn't have time for all that, leaving the people who would as the ones calling the shots. So we'd need some mechanism for people to delegate their vote to somebody else: a representative of some kind. And those representatives could form groups – councils, perhaps? – to discuss and vote on matters relevant to the people they represent. Once we've got all that set up, though, it should be easy enough to get uninstallable bloatware banned from computation devices. Right?

bobthepanda 3y ago
Coulda, shoulda, woulda. We can’t even get the deluge of spam effectively addressed by the government, and that is absolutely despised across the aisle. The same government that has enabled the concentration of wireless carriers is now expected to effectively prevent them from doing something?
- smoldesu 3y ago
  So far, resigning ourselves to failure has created capitalist horrors on all sides of the aisle. Everyone but Big Tech hates Big Tech. Utilizing our government to effectively curb abusive market practices is overall a good idea. It's how we scare predatory markets like cryptocurrency into submission. It's been harder to do with domestic inventions like the NYSE or the iPhone, but its increasingly relevant as the rest of the world cries foul. Whatever the case is, masturbating shareholders for infinite profit is not how you progress common interests.
Gigachad 3y ago
Because governments are completely incapable of regulating minute details like how tracking IDs on phones should work. The best part of the current system is your choice of phone isn't tied to how education is funded or what the immigration rate should be. You can make micro votes on every product you buy to get what suites you best.
- wizzwizz4 3y ago
  They are capable of empowering other bodies. The UK has the concept of "secondary legislation". > You can make micro votes on every product you buy to get what suites you best. Iff you are wealthy enough, and the market hasn't race-to-the-bottom'd that option away. No amount of "vote with you wallet" can get rid of leaded petrol, for example.

retrocryptid 3y ago

[Citation needed] What bloatware was verizon installing on my Nokia 3390?

worrycue 3y ago
The only thing saving your 3390 from irremovable bloatware is its weak hardware. If bloatware could be install it would be as Nokia like most phone makers will try to curry favour with the carriers to get them to promote their phones. Apple is probably the only phone maker who didn’t do that. They didn’t need to. Heck it was the other way around - carriers wanted to sell iPhones so they can get an edge over / won’t fall behind their competitors. If carriers have a problem with Apple’s refusal of their demands, they could go screw themselves. Their loss.
- retrocryptid 3y ago
  Okay. What bloatware did Verizon put on my Treo? Also. You didn't answer the question. What bloatware did Verizon put on my Nokia 3390?
  - worrycue 3y ago
    I answered your question, they can't put bloatware on your 3390 because its hardware like other phones of that era is too weak to support any.
    - retrocryptid 3y ago
      But your assertion was every phone before the iPhone had bloatware. The Nokia 3390 was a phone. Please tell me what bloatware was on the 3390.
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    Back in the day if I wanted a non-stock ringtone, you would have to purchase it through Verizon, it would’ve likely cost $3-5. iTunes was comparatively a lot cheaper, and also basically allowed any arbitrary mp3 to be used as a ringtone. Verizon also used to run their own app stores full of games and low quality music; the fact that it was free or $.99 on Apple’s stores was generally a net price decrease.

worrycue 3y ago

Irremovable bloatware was a big reason I stuck with Apple. I hate that crap so much - so much of it is poorly written trash that does nothing but advertise the carrier’s other services every freaking day for the device’s life span.

MC68328 3y ago

My Treo didn't have shovelware, my Nokia didn't have shovelware, and my BlackBerry didn't have shovelware. Yet, strangely enough, I can't uninstall Safari from any of my iPhones and replace it with Firefox.

bobthepanda 3y ago
Could you sideload on those either? (I only ever used flip phones before the iPhone. Those were filled with VZW stores for ringtones and $5+ versions of Tetris.)
- cesarb 3y ago
  > > My Treo didn't have shovelware, [...] > Could you sideload on those either? AFAIK, the Treo was just a Palm PDA with phone functionality. IIRC, what you call "sideloading" was the only way to install applications on Palm PDAs (including the Treo).

matwood 3y ago

The carriers had an iron grip on the phones and stores. People were cheering when Apple said the App Store only took a 30% cut. The reason the iPhone started on a smaller regional carrier (Cingular, but then purchased by ATT) was because they were the only ones willing to let Apple do Apple and stay hands off. Once the iPhone got traction it forced the others to follow suit. Of course times have changed, but people are quick to forget what a mess cellular used to be in the US.